Talent Trees ruined Dota 2

[The Reborn Yoshi]

From my experience in dealing with talent trees, some seemed well thought out and balanced while others were idiotic. Several talents have given various heros a permanent disable, while other characters get terrible talents like Drows +25 marksmanship agility. Dota 2 has gone from a very well balanced game to permstunning and constant 5 manning. On paper the talent trees seemed like a good idea, but when put into action it made heros broken or useless. If they want to solve this, the talent trees are going to need to not lower the cooldowns or increase the duration of disabling abilities.
I have no doubt people will disagree on this matter, but I would like to hear how they think talents are "fine and balanced."

[Myst?c]

if you think drows talent is bad
then you have problems my friend

[The Reborn Yoshi]

Originally posted by www.twitch.tv/blaster56745:

if you think drows talent is bad
then you have problems my friend

25 marksmanship agility that gets taken away if someone gets close? So many other carries have 25 agility that can't be taken away just because of a nearby enemy. Do you see the problem here? There's almost no reason to get it.

[Myst?c]

Originally posted by The Reborn Yoshi:

Originally posted by www.twitch.tv/blaster56745:

if you think drows talent is bad
then you have problems my friend

25 marksmanship agility that gets taken away if someone gets close? So many other carries have 25 agility that can't be taken away just because of a nearby enemy. Do you see the problem here? There's almost no reason to get it.

or you just dont know when and how to play drow, there is that, pike is a god send for that hero, i always grab it on drow, and it does wonders,
but by that idea in general drow is a worthless hero becuase she already has 60 somewhat agi that gets taken if another hero is close to her

[The Reborn Yoshi]

Originally posted by www.twitch.tv/blaster56745:

Originally posted by The Reborn Yoshi:

25 marksmanship agility that gets taken away if someone gets close? So many other carries have 25 agility that can't be taken away just because of a nearby enemy. Do you see the problem here? There's almost no reason to get it.

or you just dont know when and how to play drow, there is that, pike is a god send for that hero

You really don't get it, it isn't hard to close the distance no matter what item she gets... Just saying this, why not just give her +25 agi like so many other agi carries.

[Myst?c]

Originally posted by The Reborn Yoshi:

Originally posted by www.twitch.tv/blaster56745:

or you just dont know when and how to play drow, there is that, pike is a god send for that hero

You really don't get it, it isn't hard to close the distance no matter what item she gets... Just saying this, why not just give her +25 agi like so many other agi carries.

because her agi is helpful to any ranged hero on her team, unlike other agi stat users that benefit only them, go pike mjolnir aghs and tell me how easy it is to get to her if shes in a good position in the team fight

[The Reborn Yoshi]

Originally posted by www.twitch.tv/blaster56745:

Originally posted by The Reborn Yoshi:

You really don't get it, it isn't hard to close the distance no matter what item she gets... Just saying this, why not just give her +25 agi like so many other agi carries.

because her agi is helpful to any ranged hero on her team, unlike other agi stat users that benefit only them, go pike mjolnir aghs and tell me how easy it is to get to her if shes in a good position in the team fight

Whatever you say bro. I still see no reason to give her that talent, regardless why don't you argue for other talents since you are so sure drow is perfect. (BTW if a enemy team really wants to kill a drow they will get her regardless of where she is in the fight. I have seen enough people go blink bkb just to jump around my team to grab the drow).

[Duchess Minty]

But her marksman agillity has always been lost when an enemy is within the range.

Also maybe your drow should consider getting blink dagger and pike.

[zZzooey.exe]

so youre basically saying drow is useless in general because drow even without talent has a skill thats easily countered, if you know how to play.
you can then say all heroes are useless because they have a counter. it is what game is about, though.
youre saying some talents made heroes useless - wut.
i personally like talents because it gave devs a way to nerf and buff heroes without changing their core skills. they can endlessly tailor it to fit better in the game, without break apart hero completely. it gave new ways heroes can be played (for example magic ember)
it made game more interesting and complex, even if by a bit.

[Woody]

The top winrate heroes of patches post talent tree addition have lower winrates than before hand and the opposite for low winrtate heroes so I'm not sure why you think it's hurt balance.

[The Reborn Yoshi]

Originally posted by Z🍩🍩EY:

so youre basically saying drow is useless in general because drow even without talent has a skill thats easily countered, if you know how to play.
you can then say all heroes are useless because they have a counter. it is what game is about, though.
youre saying some talents made heroes useless - wut.
i personally like talents because it gave devs a way to nerf and buff heroes without changing their core skills. they can endlessly tailor it to fit better in the game, without break apart hero completely. it gave new ways heroes can be played (for example magic ember)
it made game more interesting and complex, even if by a bit.

You are taking what I said and twisting it. Maybe I should have said just so people can't do what you did that the talents make heros useless in comparison to other heros that have talents that are actually good. Talking heros that get stun cooldown reduction or talents that would make a difference in fights. Drows lvl 25 talent giving agi that can be taken away while other carries get 25 agi for keeps just seems stupid. I will say that the talents make the game interesting but they needed way more thought before being added. Do I have to remind people of the permastunning Treant Protector? Again yes some talents were decent, but others were really really bad.

[The Reborn Yoshi]

Originally posted by Woody:

The top winrate heroes of patches post talent tree addition have lower winrates than before hand and the opposite for low winrtate heroes so I'm not sure why you think it's hurt balance.

The balance was hurt when they introduced permstun abilities like maiden. This literally forces people to either focus her first in fights or hope that BKB will be enough. Just had way too many games where permstun from 2 supports literally take the carries out of the fights. Maybe if the made the abilities not permastun it would be okay, but that day isn't here.

[peaceofhell]

every new thing that valve bring to DotA ppl call bad here. every ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ thing.
actualy talents is the best of them - useless characters not so bad now, with this. +GPM to supports, a bit(a lot) physical dmg, vampiric about 10% etc...

and valve not so stupid - they are gave powerfull talents only to low and mid power characters. powerfull herous get weak talents. and this is right. idk why u dont like it.

[Woody]

Originally posted by The Reborn Yoshi:

Originally posted by Woody:

The top winrate heroes of patches post talent tree addition have lower winrates than before hand and the opposite for low winrtate heroes so I'm not sure why you think it's hurt balance.

The balance was hurt when they introduced permstun abilities like maiden. This literally forces people to either focus her first in fights or hope that BKB will be enough. Just had way too many games where permstun from 2 supports literally take the carries out of the fights. Maybe if the made the abilities not permastun it would be okay, but that day isn't here.

It isn't 100% up time and it isn't even a stun. Manta, eul's, lotus & BKB all help.

[The Reborn Yoshi]

Originally posted by peaceofhell:

every new thing that valve bring to DotA ppl call bad here. every ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ thing.
actualy talents is the best of them - useless characters not so bad now, with this. +GPM to supports, a bit(a lot) physical dmg, vampiric about 10% etc...

and valve not so stupid - they are gave powerfull talents only to low and mid power characters. powerfull herous get weak talents. and this is right. idk why u dont like it.

You seem to have jumped the gun sir. I literally talked about permastun abilities or heros given terrible lvl 25 talents. I said there were good talents, and those fall under them, but it seems you must not have read anything but the title of this. Next time read a bit more.

[Deepbluediver]

Originally posted by The Reborn Yoshi:

The balance was hurt when they introduced permstun abilities like maiden. This literally forces people to either focus her first in fights or hope that BKB will be enough. Just had way too many games where permstun from 2 supports literally take the carries out of the fights. Maybe if the made the abilities not permastun it would be okay, but that day isn't here.

So what you're saying is that supports have been improved to the point where they can be relevant in the lategame, and it doesn't entirely come down to who's carry farmed faster?
Sounds like a good deal to me, but then again I play a support. Maybe you're one of those carry-spammers who think supports shouldn't have nice things.