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to be honest, I don't think anyone of us can claim with great precision if this Aghanim proposal will be OP or not... we can discuss, brainstorm, etc... but the only way to find out is for it to be tested by millions of players before we can claim whether it makes TA more effective, or worst, or OP...
also, if this aghanim idea make "your TA" OP, but not the other millions of players, then the conclusion is, you played TA well, but it will not conclude that the item is OP itself... because experts are experts, regardless of whch items they use, the results of the item will be in their favor... but statistically speaking, for it to be considered as significantly OP, it needs a significant percentage to players to have an OP results... if this item makes majority and even noobs seems like he is an expert, then I will say, this item is OP... otherwise, I don't think it is OP...
in developing games, it is not usually the results of expert players perspective that is generally that is being studied... most likely than not, they develop or modify the game based on huge data... meaning millions of data coming from millions of players...
with this, I am not claiming that this item is not OP or OP, what I am just saying is, it needs to be verified by significant number of people (like millions of them) from all ranges of level of abilities (noobs to experts), and all ranges of situations (with good team line up, bad team line up, etc), in order to conclude if this item is OP or not... because believe it or not, in huge data analysis of complex systems, results from one individual especially if the player is too noob or too expert, don't really have much meaning... what matters is the average result, meaning how this item affect the game on the average...
so, considering those aspect, I was able to design this upgrade... I looked at data from players, TA is actually not an easy hero to master, hence the winning rate is low... also, people who played TA usually get blink dagger... but problem with blink dagger is, after long period of the game, the DPS of TA starts to be lagged behind other carries, this is mostly due to item slot potential... one way to solve this I thought was simply make a aghanim upgrade that has ability of blink dagger while not having to fully sacrifice 1 slot only for the blink... so I have to make sure that its should not be as good as the blink dagger in terms of mobility, but it should have moderated stats increase that will help TA to level with other carry in much later game... the reason why I think it will not be OP is simply because, using the aghanim blink will not going to be easy as it is not a one click skill... so this will not make the noobs being able to abuse it even if their noob enemies don't know to counter it... but at the same time, I also made sure that this have a possibility to counter, so experts may not be able to completely abuse it as well, because their expert enemies will be able to find a counter against it... basically, I tried my best to make the design as balanced as possible, but not completely balance, because I have to make sure that it will still make TA stronger, because the whole point of making aghanims is to make the hero a bit stronger...
but then again, I still believe that there is one way to really figure out whether this item is OP or not, or useless or not... that is, to test it, and see the results from millions of players... if this upgrade increases winning rate of TA to around 2% then I will say, I am succesful... if it does not increase winning rate of TA then it means it has to be buffed, if increase winning rate of TA to around 5% then it has to be nerfed... that is the way to really resolve the issue...
that is exactly my point my friend... they have similarities, but they also have differences...
ember can blink anywhere with damage but no vision
TA can blink in limited range with slow and with vision
a bit similar, and kind of balanced... but still have various differences...
Normally, your point is valid, but in the aspect of Dota it is not.
Why? Because the game is balanced around the best players, not on the avarage players.
If you read the comments I made to Maze0, in one of them I point out what winrate TA has over all the brackets. But let me put it like this.
If your Agh's will give give TA 3% winrate across all the brackets it would look like this:
Trash Tier: 51%
2k-3k: 51%
3k-4k: 52%
All Normal here, avarage.
4k-5k: 54%
5k+: 57% and this ain't good as that's around broken territory, and that's just with the 3% winrate. If it gives more, even worse.
At 5k+, TA has the 11th highest winrate.
So it's not just me who will get a huge boost from such an aghs, but all good players.
As you said, TA is not easy and she is a semi carry. She isn't supposed to scale that we'll to late game.
You also said that she is a complex hero, sonot everyone should have winrate aaroumd 50% with her. She's not an avarage hero
Here is the thing, TA is balanced in such a way that it punishes bad plays and rewards good plays.
Many players that are above 4k with which i talked stated the same 2 things:
- she is in a sweet spot and shouldn't be touched
- if anything, she needs a small nerf to slow her down.
Those aren't players who don't know to counter her, but actual good players, so if they consider her strong, can you find out why?
She has a feast or famine Playstyle. Both you and Maze0 are bellow 3k and can't properly use her property, but when you reach a skill level where players can abuse her power, people deem her in need of a nerf. Doesn't that mean she is actually balanced?
^^^^
after that comment you should close this discussion, he said everything
First, lets go to the aspect of percentage... let's stick with 3% for the whole (although I change it to 2%)... it means from lowest to highest mmr, the win rate increase is around 3%, since, it is an average, most likely than not the 3% up will most likely be from the most number of players (I would assume it to be the 2k-4k region)... while the lowest and highest bracket may have different values... though it is not wrong to assume that they have same values, so we can stick to that...
second, 57% is not broken given that in the past few years, omniknight remains around 60% in all categories, and people still didn't consider it as broken... and now spectre is almost 59%... and I still don't consider spectre as "broken"...
third, in game development, it is actually not an issue whether a hero is OP or not... based on games studies, it is actually more fun and engaging if a hero has many explorable skills and some few OP skills... however, there should be restrictions, a) the OP skills can only attained by higher level of playing skills, and 2) that the OP skill can be countered... because this aspect of gaming gives good feeling of reward to those who have higher gaming skills that were able to take advantage of the OP skill, at the same time gives good feeling of reward also to those who found a strategy to stop the OP skill... that is the basic outline of game development on how to make the players feel better about the game... basically, I patterned my aghanim design based on that psychological game reward system... such that, the blink skill can be taken advantage only by those who have high gaming skills aka experts, and only those same experts will be able to counter it as well... so, it does not matter much even if the experts will be able to "abuse" the skills against non experts... what matters is people will get a reward from getting higher gaming skills... while the majority will tend to play the game more by simply trying to improve their skills to reach that level...
and this gives you to the fourth, dota is a business, I think it is safe to say that, they are adjusting the game so it will be more fun to play for the majority of players where they get majority of their revenue... meaning, they design it based on what majority of people thinks... if they design their game development based on what "expert players" (very few) thnks, then their business will soon be limited with dedicated expert players, and discourage majority of players to explore the game further because it becomes too difficult for them to play with and/or simply gets bored of the game... you have to understand the economic aspect also... so, regarding game design, especially the "free games", the design of their game should be able to maximize the number of players as well... so, you have to think of a way in order to encourage the majority to stick to the game... and one way of making the majority stick to the game is by making sure that, there will be a linear learning curve, and each skills learned are given a reward... to some extent, having an OP skill is the least concern of "free game" developers, as long as this skill will give players good feeling of reward for getting it... basically, for your case, if this aghanims did materialize and if you did use it well, you will also give you superiority feeling of being able to "abuse" the skill while majority cannot... while people who can learn to counter the skill will also have a superiority feeling of countering you and not allowing you to "abuse" the skill... finally, the majority would like to remain in the game because they want to reach that level of skill, so they will also someday reach that feeling of superiority... in short, there is an economic and pcychological aspect of gaming as well...
basically, when I I suggested this aghanim upgrade, I tried to consider all these aspects... it is a complex balance considering all those... I would not claim that I found a perfect balance for the item, but what I can say is, I gave a good starting template that they can possibly use and tweak (buff or nerf) until they reach the optimum condition of the upgrade...
Remind me, since when does Valve care about the money dota brings?
Dota is like pocket change when it comes to how much revenue it brings Valve. Because Valve has other games as well, not just Dota, so yes, they do balance the game based on pros for 1 simple reason: TO KEEP IT BALANCED. Yes, Dota has some spikes when it brings more money, like the TI, but compared to everything else it's pocketchange.
Read my 2nd comment.
Valve doesn't care about money when it comes to Dota because not Valve does the balance, it's Icefrog. Icefrog is actually good at doing balance and he balances around the pros.
Why do people consider Dota to be better than LoL in terms of balance when LoL does what you suggest, balancing the game around the avarage players as well as the pros, not just the pros alone as Dota does? Because Riot needs the money, while Valve doesn't.
As for winrates...Omniknight....one of the most situational supports in the game...yea...
Omniknight winrate:
- General: 54.30%
- Trash Tier: 54.33%
- 2k-3k: 55.43%
- 3k-4k: 54.29%
- 4k-5k: 53.94%
- 5k+ 55.41%
Omniknight is good at 1 thing: Defending againt physical damage comps. The freek BKB is nice, but that can be played around, just like playing around a normal BKB. He's just avarage, nothing to write home about. He's good at what he's supposed to do and that's that. Look at his pickrates.
Spectre winrate:
- General: 58.79%
- Trash Tier: 58.27%
- 2k-3k: 57.87%
- 3k-4k: 57.69%
- 4k-5k: 56.49%
- 5k+: 53.43%
Spectre has decent winrates everywhere, but she plummets hard when people actually know how to play against her, and a 5% winrate loss between trash tier where people don't know to push (your ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ tier) and 5k+ tier is huge. Most of her winrate comes from the trash tier and low skill players, because Spectre is the "give me time to farm and I'll kill you all" hero, and guess what trash tier players do? Give her time to farm.
If any of these 2 would be actually broken, Icefrog would nerf them, the fact that they don't suggests exactly this, they aren't.
You never see a 5k player coming on the forum to cry that a hero is OP, but you see all the trash tier here crying.
I asked you this, yet you didn't want to asnwer:
I trash tier players like you and Maze0 want to buff TA because she is weak, yet high skill players think she deserves a nerf because she's too good, doesn't that mean she's balanced?
-She is in a sweet spot. (Yes she is good. Sometimes godly yet she is really easy to shutdown. Also easier to counter then most ganker/carries)
- She needs to be slowed down (Yes she starts dominating eraly but if u manage to deal with this she loses) So if u slow her down: Her beauty is lost. Addionally Aghs rush would actually slow her down and as secondary blink build it would not change anything at this point)
And now again the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ part of yours.
How possibly can those be a valid agruments?
First off my medium MMR is somehere near 2,8 goes up and down all the time by few hundreds.
Im also not even trying to rise my MMR i only play ranked cus theres less leavers.
Now your friends with 10 more wins at ranked games are suddenly way higher skillcap than me?
Addionally theres no chance you were asking them about the idea without any sort of tought seeding. Shortly: you have your stance and what u were asking was them to support your stance not to consider idea as possibility.
Did your 3k friend understood that this aghs is not even core item? If you are 3k player and u consider it as core or rush item you arent better than any newb with TA. Unless your enemy is sho ♥♥♥♥♥ that the manage to feed you 5k in 10 minutes. So in really rare cases this would happen but mostly not a good idea.
This item should be built after all your core items. When you are allready winning but you findyourself stuck due game going on for too long. Also could be considered if you are losing due extreme dot counters and global skills that can ruin your normal blinks. But not even close to being new core item.
Wtf man lol
Your argument: My mmr goes between 1.7k and 3k.
Basic math: avg of 1700 and 3000 is 2350, so your avarage mmr is 2350 not 2800, because those are the values you gave us, so if you can't prove otherwise, you are a sub 2.5k trash.
As for why is he better than you? I don't ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ know, maybe because 4k players and above are better than 2k trash?
well yea my lowest is 1,7 where i have been XD But i stay 2,5 and over mostly.
You cant get average in this case by saying what was my lowest.
Like if i stay at 100MMR for one day and then at 2k for 2 moths my average is 1000?
Once again you prove how much u think before making statements and arguments.
I also forgot to mention that new Aghs blink is silencable.
O what i actually think is that: Most really good players would say bit different things than you.
1. This aghs will be hardly ever worth the hussle cuz it have so many weakpoints.
2. Would sure try this but i like to play TA like she is also.
I dont think really high skill players would be so bold and give arguments about how their 3k friends think lols.
Were saying? Or you are so dumb that you forget what you yourself stated? 1.7k and 3k are the values you constantly go between, that's what you said, so no, by your own words, you aren't staying at 2.5k mostly, but mostly are at 2350, so you are still a sub 2.5k trash.
Why wouldn't they? I am not a hypocrite like you who doesn't want to listen or understant. I climbed from 100 MMR to over 3k because I acutally listen, you're the trash who can't climb because he knows everything. And if they listen just for comparison's sake, they are still listening and giving their opinions.
I don't think they would, because I actually play with really good players to improve myself, instead of crying a hero is too weak because you get shut down by trash players.
EDIT: "A bit different things" doesn't mean that they don't agree with me.
Well ofc some would agree with you. You are not completly wrong. Giving more options and possibly make already great hero stronger can hurt some games.
Once again. Me or OP have never cried about TA being too weak. She is really unique hero that is sometimes really really strong and sometimes gets shut down really easy.
So she is balanced in its own way but this Item would make here more flexible.
Sometimes giving you huge advantage sometimes not worth to build. Therefore really awsome awsome item that might need some balancing as it is not tested and is purely idea of med skill player.
So give some good tips how to balance it.
Bring some nice examples where it would be too OP and examples where building it can ruin your games. Suggest solutions and possibly better aghs ideas.
What my problem with you is that you are telling that this is making TA completly overpowered. And you are not giving exact agruments how.
You are overlooking so many things about it and repeating same thing.
What about silence? Some pros would instantly say its trash item just because of this.
Thus not improoving TA build but nerfing it. You are completely overlooking this small but huge thing for example.
You are trying to prove that higher MMR players know better and thay are supporting you.
I dont give a F what some people say if i havent heard exactly what they say and i dont even know if they really say that. Have u asked all 5-7k players and can u prove it?
No! Not even close to this.
I like to chit chat with you but both of us have ruined this thread completly.