Last Stand Rant.

[Mr Eos]

Stay in the middle of the map. Stop sitting in spawn thinking you're helping by camping a singular spawn and killing it as soon as it spawns up. Even doing that you're only handling about 1/6 of the workload. While I handle the other 5/6th of the work from the middle of the map dragging you to 20 and surviving it with no deaths.. While you all keep dying about 4+ times in your spawn camp before we even reach round 10.

1/6th? You ask how I come up with that number

4 spawns
2 Capture points.
2 other teammates

So technically, it's 1/8th of the workload.

3 people fighting as one from the middle, is better than everyone camping in their own spawn by themselves.

Now don't be like. "But I stood in the middle and I died!"

You still have to use the map assets like the Tanks on Anvil to temporarily break line of sight with one group, while simulatenously drawing them in closer for an AOE attack.

Usually, if all 3 people just stood in the middle of the map and fought as a TEAM, you don't have to worry about much until round 14+ (For me the game gets dangerous at 17). That's when things get dangerous and start killing you legitimately, instead of from your own ignorance on how your playstyle sucks. Because 90% of you do go off on your own, and sit in your own spawn away from the rest of your team and your dying multiple times before we even get to round 14.

MASSIVE TIP: The enemy will come to you, staggered, in the same way that they spawn. You don't have to go to them. Just focus on whichever group reaches you first or whatever priority target might come in later. But everything will come to YOU. You don't have to go to the enemy,

Now here's another negative synergy that happens because you want to fight all by yourself in the dead end of a spawn.

If I'm playing something squishy like the Lord General and a dreadnaught decides to lock onto me. I have an option to Shed the aggro onto something else. By entering and exiting one of the 2 buildings on the map. But if there is no other threat around focusing on that dread. There is nothing to shed the aggro onto. Which means... The buildings are now worthless and I'm dead. Because you want to fight in a spawn by yourself instead of near the middle of the map, where the rest of your team is. And you're the "Tank" of the group only handling 1/4th of the aggro. If I could legitimately tell my "Minions" what target to attack, I'd probably be able to shed it that way. But Lord Generals don't get to dictate what their minions fire at . You as 1/3rd of a team, do.


Truly. The winning strategy is learning how to walk a figure 8 around 2 tanks and/or using the buildings to shed aggro (If you're able) when your health is dropping way to fast, in the case of anvil. Colosseum is the same concept but you have 2 buildings a little farther apart with some Pillars that usually last a while that you can use to break line of sight.

Now I ask, in the case of a map like Anvil, How far away are those 2 immobile tanks that provide that all important Line of sight breaking defense, if you're in the extreme dead end of any one of the spawns?

Fight in the middle of the map with your other 2 teammates as one. That's how you win without dying. That's how you keep the capture points under your control. From standing in a place that allows you defend BOTH. The Middle of the map.

Games been out for far too long for this many level 20's to not understand how everything works. Even some triple Elite 20's still try to camp a spawn. How do you get that much xp under your belt and not adjust your strategy to a winning one?

Here's the game, for as simple as it is. There is a Score. It means nothing at all. Yet it means everything at the same time. The game is simple enough that not attempting to keep the capture points under control while achieving a ZERO DEATHS game, means you might as well just quit.

Just recently, orc decides he wants to be a hero and try to go for one last teleport to take out the Eldar Avatar. Knowing that my mech, is about to die, and it's going to switch targets. Survival bonus lost. For what? Because you're competing to see who gets the most kills?

Or another recent one. Only one aggressive unit left on the map. Literally no sweat. It's a unit of 3 Tyranid warriors. Decides to pop off an-anti armor missile. Kills his teammate who was at 90% health, and would have easily stood against those last 3 warriors. Survival Bonus lost. For what?

I have no other reason to play Last stand, except to play it for what it is. It's a game about Surviving, not dying. The ratio of players that can achieve 17+ million scores should not be at 1%. One of these days, I'd like to make a legitimate attempt at a 27+ with randoms. That would be an exciting game. But watching that survival bonus disappear before round 10 because of bad playstyles that think it's a competition for the most kills..... Dont' ever question why I might suddenly drop out of the match. Because you stole the excitement from it.

It's getting the the point that some games, I have to capture both points right from the start. I think I'll just immediately leave any room with players like that. You are boring and lazy.

[Dridore]

as you said, points don't even matter, most of the fun comes from running around, taking care of things, helping your teammates etc.
the fact that the game allows you to revive your teammates means it allows players to die and retry.

my only rant would be that disconnected players (wether it be intentionnal or not) get overtaken by AI, fully removing the hero from the game makes it a lot less fun :/
that and sound bug should get fixed too :^)

[Eldi]

Depends on the team imo.
Cornering camping has it's merits.

[Nobody]

I agree with some things you wrote. but there are different strategies that can lead to a victory. In my opinion it depends on the team, the teambuild, the tactics and the strategy.

The gates spawn different units at each wave, what makes it hard to calculate who does what percentage of the work. And I see no problem to camp gates in the early waves to proceed fast, if the players have enough firepower to handle it. To secure the map from 1-16 on the Kolosseum should not be a problem if you have some mobility in your team.

Anvil is different. But you can handle half map alone while another teammate does the same at the other side, if you have the right build and some experience. At least at the early waves there is no need to stick together all time if you play full builds.

Sure, it needs several adjustments if you want to play with tokens for higher scores. I am curious to hear from you, what builds you would suggest for a 27kk+ game. I would join the party to try your strategy. Hard to imagine to do this with randoms, if they haven't already got some experience in high score gaming.

[Mr Eos]

The only victory that matters in this game. IS ZERO DEATHS!

That is the game.

If trying to keep the points captured while doing that is too much, then you're not really playing the game. That capture point is like a Teammate. If you let the enemy capture it, Your teammate needs revived and brought back under your control.

What else is there in the game other than those capture points? You're saying controlling 1 character with maybe at most 5 different skills is too much to multitask?

There is NO merit to spawn camping and ignoring those points.

The reason you're allowed to be revived is because you don't master the game overnight and the farther you make it the more XP you get. But once you've hit Triple Elite 20 on a character. WTF do you still play like "THAT" where you play to die just because you can be revived.

That is not how you make last stand exciting.

And I'll clarify. I don't leave just because someone died. I leave because you died while being lazy, and I'm having to do the majority of the work keeping the points captured, actually trying to help Both of you at once, as hard as some of you make that when you sit on opposite ends of the map... Rather than fighting on my own.

[Mr Eos]

Tau can do it. With just Heavy for the stun.
Eldar can do it. With just Confusion and Levitation field.
Sorcerer can do it. Teleport with Fire or Doombolts.

And each of those could do it 3 wide
3 Tau
3 Eldar
3 Sorceror Mix up the fire and doombolts between the 3 of you. But one of you needs doombolt.

IE, You don't need a Tau to get a 27.

The rest of the classes cannot afford to have 3 tokens on.

Space marine can get away with 2 tokens if they don't want to be completely worthless.

I'm a bit iffy on the Tyranid though. You could probably do it with 2 or 3, but you'd need a Tau and they needs to be a master,

Technically speaking, if you had a Master Tau, and a Team that didn't go sit in a spawn on their own. A Single Tau can Drag everyone to a 27+ score. But that requires you all to play from the middle of the map and knowing how to spot and control your aggro.

And I'll also argue against your Anvil strategy of having a Full build Tyranid sitting on opposite ends of the map. Even though you're handling it. It's not the most efficient. I'd argue that you can kill everything quicker, if you all stood in the center, and focused on the groups as they stagger into your range. 3 people focusing on a spawn kills it much quicker than just 1 person trying to kill that spawn. If you're always in the center with your other 2 teammates. You're always getting that 3v1 scenario. You'll kill that first group by the time the 2nd one staggers into your range and so on.

I know this, because of how much walking I have to do, to help one of you, just to walk over to the other side of the map to help the other.

By sitting right there at the chokepoint next to both gates. You deny the Tyranid on the other side of the map doing the same thing from Participating in killing that group Because the group never leaves the spawn and gets into their range. At best you're only ever getting 2v against any of those spawns. because that is where you put the focus of fighting that group. Away from the rest of your team. Then when you're watching everyone else with nothing to do, but you're still trying to polish off your half of the map..... By the time I walk across the map to get to you to make it 2v, you finally finish them off by yourself or not. It is absolutely inefficient. If I was spending the last 7-10 seconds attacking something rather than walking across the map.... That was also about 7-10 seconds the other Tyranid was just sitting there DOING NOTHING!

Then if you consider If I'm a 3rd wheel space marine with a mech for primary damage output. How long does it take that mech to keep walking back and forth. Which side of the map do I choose to 2v to leave the other side 1v?

Everyone in the Center of the map = 3v at all times.

You know, now that I think about it. Space marine could probably do 3 tokens. Forego the jetpack and put on the Zealous Healing item, and spam attacks against the tank during any downtime or when someones health gets low.. Just need teammates that know how to control and manipulate more aggressive melee. Like a Eldar Confusing things off the marine, etc. Whether or not you could manage to go 3 wide with a Zealous Claw marine..... who knows.? That would definitely rank up there as a more exciting scenario for sure. The primary issue is that the unshakable armor doesn't have enough armor and knockdown eventually screws the marine with no jetpack.

[Dridore]

if you think victory is only about not dying, especially with randoms, you're being delusionnal.

people try different builds, some are more fun than others
some are worse than others, but it's okay, they can take risks, teammates are there to support each other.

when one is limitting his potential in order to get more points, you could say that more points come at the cost of fun potential.

another way of putting it, most people want fun, not points
it's like asking people to play competitive while they just want to chill

[Clockwork]

Originally posted by Mr Eos:

once you've hit Triple Elite 20 on a character. WTF do you still play like "THAT" where you play to die just because you can be revived.

There used to be a time I cared about dying in the game, and caring about winning "at all cost". But one day I realised it doesn't matter. People want to play their way, I'm fine with it. As long as I can have fun playing my way too.

If I want an entire team to play in a specific way, either I ask them whether or not they're willing to try a strategy, or I find some buddies to set up a team. If I play with randoms, I let them have their fun. If I'm not fine with being dictated how to play by other players, then it goes the other way too: they don't want to be told how to play. Doesn't matter whether or not I know what I'm saying, they had a long day, they just want to have fun.

Generally speaking, I agree with you that camping in one single gate is not sound (especially since there are several very mobile characters who can take on the entire map by themselves, but that's beyond the point). That being said, each of us have our own way of having fun.

If playing with randoms is killing your fun, I think you should consider messaging people, then create a group and exclusively invite players with whom you want to play. This way, you know the people you are playing with are like minded.

[Clockwork]

Originally posted by Mr Eos:

And I'll also argue against your Anvil strategy of having a Full build Tyranid sitting on opposite ends of the map. Even though you're handling it. It's not the most efficient. I'd argue that you can kill everything quicker, if you all stood in the center, and focused on the groups as they stagger into your range.

Although that statement is true in a huge majority of the scenario, it's not a one-size-fits-all. On wave 20 of Anvil, if you stand middle and wait for the stuff to come to you, the timer will drop.

As soon as the last enemies have spawned (4 dreadnoughts), you have 25 seconds before the time multiplier drops. And as soon as the last enemy is dealt with, it takes 2 seconds for the victory bonus to drop (which means if you finish the last enemy on the 2 last seconds of the timer, it will drop and the victory bonus will be given with a lesser multiplier). Considering how slow they are, it will take forever for them to reach you.

There are so many vehicles on the last Anvil wave, you have to kill them the very instant they spawn, and then move on to kill the other stuff around you. It's not "stand still" or "always moving", it's both.

Edit: Still, I'd rather have fun relaxing than focus on getting score at all cost when not necessary.

[Nobody]

Originally posted by Mr Eos:

Tau can do it. With just Heavy for the stun.
Eldar can do it. With just Confusion and Levitation field.
Sorcerer can do it. Teleport with Fire or Doombolts.

And each of those could do it 3 wide
3 Tau
3 Eldar
3 Sorceror Mix up the fire and doombolts between the 3 of you. But one of you needs doombolt.

3 Eldar with tokens? How do you want to kill the last Carnifex at wave 17? Do you know what timedrops you will get during the highwaves if you want to kill big units by confusing them?

I agree that it is necessary to focus fire at the high waves. But in my experience, it needs a bit more than just letting the enemies come to you to get a decent score.

[Mr Eos]

Technically speaking, if I was to go 3 wide with Eldar. 1 of them is bringing Fortune and Laughing staff, with the -50 melee damage +100 health armor. Those carnifexes are push overs with Confusion and one Fortuned melee build to handle the last one.

And it's not that I want you to play in a specific way. That's why I usually don't try to dictate to people while the game is on. I let you do your thing.

This is about... what.. how long has this game been out?

All the things I would have said to ALL OF YOU, during the game, if I was that concerned about forcing you to play a certain way is right here in this thread instead.
And this is more of a Rant to give you advice on how to play smarter.

Truley, the thing I hate the most about last stand. Is having to walk past a spawn gate to come revive one of you, just to walk all the way back to the middle of the map, where I PLAY... and lets assume your death didn't ruin any reason to focus on the points. While I'm walking to come save you from your mistake. Guess what the enemy is doing. Capturing my points, while also simultaneously following me into that spawn you died in.... Let's just hope fortune is enough for both of us to survive now being trapped in a dead end with the only salvation running through the enemy to get to cover again.

And the end of the day. Even for Level 1's, the superior strategy leading up to round 17, is camping the middle of the map with everyone. That ensures that you're able to use your other 2 teammates and the map assets to help control your own aggro, so that you can let a more powerful player walk in front of you and take the aggro from any particular spawn before you then come attack. in relative safety, because nothing is focusing on your squishy.

I don't really mean Sit directly in the center of the map at all times. It just means, that the majority of rounds when they start. You should be in the center of the map using the tanks and your other 2 teammates to control aggro. Only moving out when the first Spawn groups walks into your range.

Trying to use the last wave and it's number of Vehicles as en excuse to not adhere to that leading up to that final wave, is not a defense against what I have stated.

I think you all need to worry about actually SURVIVING. Before I even start worrying about the time bonus dropping a tier. That's the difference between a 25 million vs 27 million? When I just want the majority of you to adopt a strategy of just not dying... at least put in the effort for a 17. Once the majority of you can do that. Then we can worry about adding Tokens, THEN we can worry about the Time bonus.

There's not a lot going on in this game for you to think that you can't relax while doing that. I literally AFK for the first 14 rounds just sitting in the center of the map waiting for the enemy to come to me.... How is that not relaxing? I mean, when I play my Trynaid build. I get accused of being AFK. Because I don't need to move from the middle of the map to basically dominate it with a Trynaid. I dominate the WHOLE map from the center instead of just Half the map sitting on an extreme edge of it.

Most of my fun, comes from watching you all bumble around playing bad for those first 14-17 rounds. It's why I main the Eldar with Confusion, Fortune, and Entangle. It's the ultimate support build, to LET YOU take all the glory while I help to ensure you don't die from how you play. But as I said, Fortune does have a limited range, Which is why that Tynaids sitting on opposite ends of the map on anvil is kind of annoying.
No really.

But even though I get enjoyment from watching how bad some of you play. I still would like to see the general "Participation" in the actual game (IE the CAPTURE POINTS) to rise up just a little bit.

Not caring about dying or the capture points, fall way below just playing for relaxing fun. As I said. There's not much going on in the game besides that, I see no reason to even start the game up to go in with the mentality of not caring about such simple game mechanics.



If there was anything to dicate at how you should play. It's the people that sit out in the open when their at 25% health with a perfectly viable option to walk a circle around the closest tank to live. But they just sit there, not moving, out in the open..... dead. That literally is AFK'ing. And it's usually against those eldar long range units, not the suppressing tank, the walkers that fire the AOE bolt.

How do you not manage to muster up enough participation to break line of sight with that? Would you call that relaxing fun? To just stand there purposely dying because you can't click a mouse button to go walk behind a tank for cover?

I'm going to reiterate something.
The Confusion, Fortune, Entangle build is capable of dragging people through to 20 with no deaths. But not if your out of range of fortune or playing to die. I shouldn't have to let the enemy capture my points to go chase you into the farthest most extreme dead end of a spawn just to give you some extra armor. Your contribution sitting in that dead end of spawn is 1/8th. Remember that. That's the only thing I wish I could dictate. Stay in my range. So that I can do the other 7/8ths of the work instead of just 2/8ths.

[Mr Eos]

TLDR. When you are dead, you're not playing. Until I come revive you.

I like playing rather than watching don't you?

Unfortunately for me the Game doesn't really start until 14-17. So my overabundance of experience with this gametype and knowing that the middle of the map is the most superior spot to defend the capture points. kind of forces me to Watch for those first 14 rounds from a relative stand point. When I get stuck with 2 teammates who fight on opposite ends of the map inside the spawn areas. If you'd sit in the middle with me. I wouldn't have to Watch as much, while still defending the points.

So in a way. You ignoring the points, to go camp a spawn is a bit selfish because you're literally fighting them all your own. Don't need my help do yah? Why do these other 2 players even exist in the game?

[Clockwork]

Look, we know how to play. You shouldn't assume any person talking on the forum is a newbie x)

You are jumping to conclusion too. I didn't say I disagree with everything you said, nor did I said I want to spend the entire game camping in a gate, nor did I said I had trouble staying alive. All I said is: you do you.

Edit: In fact, your entire wall of text is making a lot of assumption on how I play, even though you never ever saw me play. It's like you're trying to conflate all the people you rant about, into every single other players, which I'm not.

And that will be my last post in this thread.

[Mr Eos]

Not how you play, how the majority play. If any of it is directed at you, it's directed at you attempting to defend that Tyranids sitting on their own side of the map tactic. IF that was even you. I hardly pay attention to who is replying. I look at the argument they bring. not the person bringing it.

Not once did I ever call out you specifically.

Do you make a habit of going into thread and making it about you?
This rant IS directed at those newbies or those 3x Elite players who are wasting my time and sucking the excitement out of the match.

Because from my recall. Me and you hardly ever match up. I think I've played with you probably 5 times in last stand since I've owned this game and I've owned it since day 1 of release. Going back to pre-retribution.

Unless you're telling me you fit the profile? I don't take offense at things that I'm not guilty of. why do you?

[-GK- Paladin]

Middle of the map or knowing gates, I'll take knowing gates. I'll finish the game faster than you, have a better score and no deaths in the team (with reasonable players, others just die regardless of what I do to save them). Kill the threat before it is a threat. Staying middle sounds like a strategy for casual play with full gear. 27 million is almost casual score. Literally just need 1 Tau master and 2 other players with full tokens. Now when you take 9 tokens for 28-29+, that is when things start becoming hardcore.

It is senseless bashing on the heads of the randoms you encounter. Casual players are 99% of the players you will encounter. Elite are less than 1%. Instead, see it as an opportunity to improve your own gameplay. Carrying clueless/low level players to a win is the hallmark of an elite player. We were all noob once too, those before us probably also rolled their eyes at the stupid things and pointless deaths we did before we "knew our stuff".

Also, so you do not misunderstand, I get where you are coming from and share your frustrations, just would not go so far as to make a rant thread getting upset about the inevitable coaster or noob that jumps into the Raider gate, dies and says "wtf" when you told them so...

[Mr Eos]

No you wont. You can make all the claims you want. About the only class that is doing that is Tau. You going to gate camp and outkill outsurvive me with anything else other than a class that trivializes the matter. Do it with a Lord General.

AOE attacks doesn't care how big the group is. And all you need is one half decent AOE attack. Use the tanks to draw everything into one big group towards the center.

This is your defense.
----Let me spam my AOE on this one ...while the other 3 spawns are starting to surround my team... that I can't help to survive regardless.. because I'm not even making an attempt. I'm over here trying to kill this 1 spawn before the 1 spawn becomes a threat.

Oh crap.. the other 3 spawns just killed one of my other teammates....

That's all I got from you.

Because in all reality, none of you are actually good enough to do what you claim. especially with randoms.
My strategy puts Survival at the very front of the entire tactic where you play as a team instead of I'mma do this all MYSELF Quicker than YOU.. You are arguing from a non-team work based stand point, You are wrong.

Quick killing is worthless when one of you dies. WTF part of that don't you get.

The time bonus is the LAST thing to worry about. Until you master the other 3 Aspects.
Survival, Keeping the points captured, THEN TOKENS..... How quick you do it comes in at #4. The majority seem to priortize #4, rather than the first 3 aspects that gatekeep #4.

The point still stands. Everything you just said. Is defending being dragged to that victory by a Singular Tau Player. Don't even need the other 2 to participate.... right?

You still really want to use that as any kind of counter-argument?

MY rant is about how much people participate in playing "THE GAME", and IMO it takes more than 1 person to keep the points captured at all times. IF you're all off spawn camping instead of focusing on the unit that is going straight for the cap. You've got a lot to learn about the game yet. And it's not coincendental that spawn camping has never been capable of being efficient enough at killing everything before something makes it out and starts capping one of your points.


!00% uptime is the goal on those cap points.


What's your tactic for doing a 9 token game, WITHOUT A TAU?



Or better yet. When no-one in the game has tokens on. What's the point of killing as quickly as possible as the priority rather making sure your team survives as the main priority?


I didn't even know that about 6 tokens is a 27... and 9 gets you to 29. Because the general skill level of people that play this game is too damn low to get a taste. I only thought that because I casually skimmed over some of those screenshots some of you post. and assumed the rest about it taking 9 to get to 27.



To put a long story short. I bet I drag more random newbies to Zero Deaths games than you do. OR at least get them into the 19 range before someone dies. Unless they go camp in a spawn playing by themselves. then I ignore them and let them die, about 10% of the time. Funny thing too.... 0 Death Games usually end up in seeing more GG's in the chat. So tell me again that aint the only victory that matters.

To put it even shorter. Middle Camping is a ONE SIZE FITS ALL Strategy where everyone participates. Compared to your Tau Spawn Camping, selfish, tactic.