HELLDIVERS™ 2

HELLDIVERS™ 2

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Dundo 27 DIC 2024 a las 4:24 a. m.
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Light pen weapons are near useless
Title, they need far more damage or need to be converted to medium pen.
There is 0 use for light pen weapons as is.
Publicado originalmente por VFA-97 Warhawks:
I am a medium pen user for the most part as well since it makes the game simply easier with less often needs to swap weapons arround.

People talked about (1) loadout combo and (2) dealing with chaff. but here is the thing in my opinion.

1. Regarding the weapon loadout: With a medium pen you simply get one weapon that can engage a variety of target regardless of where you hit while keeping the secondary weapon as utility weapon (Dagger to clear minefields or Grenade Pistol to clear bug holes) and the support weapon as a Anti Tank. Whats the point of taking light pen and a medium pen support weapon in the first place? As much as i love Stalwart and MG43 i do prefer AT support weapons to take out chargers and bile titans before they become a nuisance.


2. Why do i want to deal with chaff personally? For that i have MG sentry, Gatling Sentry, Strafing run, Cluster bombs, Napalm strike, Orbital Gatling, Orbital Air Burst, Gas, Guard Dog and so on. Chaff is simply no issue in that game since like 85% of all non support weapon strategems are for chaff. I dont even bother dealing with chaff hence i dont need a chaff clearing primary. And Bots dont have that much chaff in the first place.

That brings me to a third point and thats strategem design at the moment:

3. In the past i used the MG43 a lot paired with whatever primary i wanted while using stun Grenades + Orbital Precision/500G or the 110 mm Rockets from the Eagle as it was more effective at that time to handle chaff by myself while calling Charger killing strikes from above. Today, since AT support weapons have become so effective compared to every other AT Strategems i feel like taking a non AT support weapon is a complete waste and a burden to the team. The easiest matches are those with 3 people having a Recoilles Rifle and then 3 Strategems to clear chaff.



So, when people tell me that i can get a liberator for chaff and MG43 for medium targets or a Sentor i would ask: Why should i? I can get a liberator Penetrator instead+ MG sentry/Guard dog and some sort of AT in the support role. That makes live much easier.

So far i have only two light pen weapons to enjoy on the Bot front: Scythe and sickle and mostly only when i have a Railgun or Anti Materiel as Support weapon while dudes do the AT role. But every other light pen weapon i use is only for the sake of fun or diversity of gameplay rather than being of any actual help for the team.
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Mostrando 46-60 de 672 comentarios
Dundo 27 DIC 2024 a las 7:38 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Nipply:
If I want to add a scope to a gun, I think that should be possible.
Gun customization was something that was supposed to be in game. Well that ship's sailed.

I'd like some form of meta progression for sure, maybe something as simple as weapon skins/patterns for achieving various weapon-related challenges.
Dundo 27 DIC 2024 a las 7:41 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Axis of Lint:
My disagreement is that I already think they are viable and you're not convincing me that they aren't. They can kill the vast majority of the enemies in the game (any light pen weapon can kill any robot up to a hulk, any bug up to a charger and any illuminate (can light pen kill the weak point on a harvester? I honestly don't know). Making them stronger would only mean they get prioritised over medium pen primaries because they already do more damage in general and now you're buffing them on top of that.

In an avg pub 10 game there's 0 chance you'll find anyone running light-pen. Think of the Adjudicator for a moment, it deals more damage than most light pen primaries and comes with medium pen, it doesn't have high recoil and it's generally more ammo efficient to run than light-pen and deals with a wider range of enemies.

There's no chance that giving light-pen weapons more damage would make them prioritised over medium pen weapons because the boon of medium pen is already high as is. If higher damage was such a massive deal Tenderizer should be a top 10 pick which it really isn't. Higher damage light pen weapons would still struggle with a wide range of enemies but it would also be more rewarding to pick in other extremes and even become rewarding for more skilled players.

I would be a proponent of slighly buffing the damage of light-pen primaries but also a proponent of giving them a better weak-spot multiplier, thus rewarding accuracy even further.
Última edición por Dundo; 27 DIC 2024 a las 7:43 a. m.
Turahk 27 DIC 2024 a las 7:50 a. m. 
light is trash on diffs above 5
Axis of Lint 27 DIC 2024 a las 7:55 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Dundo:
Publicado originalmente por Axis of Lint:
My disagreement is that I already think they are viable and you're not convincing me that they aren't. They can kill the vast majority of the enemies in the game (any light pen weapon can kill any robot up to a hulk, any bug up to a charger and any illuminate (can light pen kill the weak point on a harvester? I honestly don't know). Making them stronger would only mean they get prioritised over medium pen primaries because they already do more damage in general and now you're buffing them on top of that.

In an avg pub 10 game there's 0 chance you'll find anyone running light-pen. Think of the Adjudicator for a moment, it deals more damage than most light pen primaries and comes with medium pen, it doesn't have high recoil and it's generally more ammo efficient to run than light-pen and deals with a wider range of enemies.

There's no chance that giving light-pen weapons more damage would make them prioritised over medium pen weapons because the boon of medium pen is already high as is. If higher damage was such a massive deal Tenderizer should be a top 10 pick which it really isn't. Higher damage light pen weapons would still struggle with a wide range of enemies but it would also be more rewarding to pick in other extremes and even become rewarding for more skilled players.

Are you... are you kidding? There's *obviously* more things to consider than damage. Why you keep picking a single value and saying that it's all that matters I don't know.

I've repeatedly pointed out that your entire loadout matters when picking weapons.

Also, the adjudicator is a terrible pick, it badly needs a rebalance. Tenderiser also, both guns have low ammo counts requiring reloads mid fight and neither can single shot anything that I can think of that a light pen weapon can't so you're essentially gimping yourself in a firefight because the TTK isn't any quicker and you have less ammunition to work with.

The 'boon of medium pen' is not as significant as you think. What can you kill with medium armour pen that you can't with light? Reinforced rocket striders are the only standout example I can think of.
Última edición por Axis of Lint; 27 DIC 2024 a las 8:00 a. m.
Dakota 27 DIC 2024 a las 7:56 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Axis of Lint:
Publicado originalmente por Dundo:
Light-pen weapons hitting harder on headshots/weakspots wouldn't invalidate loadout building, you would still need to make support weapon picks based no your loadout. It would simply make them more viable as a choice. You could opt in for weaponry that requires marksmanship but deals with ''chaff'' faster or you can opt in for weapons that don't hit as hard but can deal with most things from any angle ( med-pen).

As is, light weapons don't have stats that are in any way exceedingly better than their medium pen contemporaries.

My disagreement is that I already think they are viable and you're not convincing me that they aren't. They can kill the vast majority of the enemies in the game (any light pen weapon can kill any robot up to a hulk, any bug up to a charger and any illuminate (can light pen kill the weak point on a harvester? I honestly don't know). Making them stronger would only mean they get prioritised over medium pen primaries because they already do more damage in general and now you're buffing them on top of that.

The light pen weapons don't do more damage in general.

Explosive weapons are medium pen and do vastly more damage than light pen weapons as they hit whole groups of enemies at once. Flame weapons are heavy pen and do more damage due to ease of hitting whole groups of enemies at once.

If we ignore the explosive and flame weapons and just compare the medium ballistic weapons to the light ballistic weapons, dominator and counter sniper have the shortest time to kills against any enemies you can find out of those options. If we ignore all of the weapons that are particularly good and just look in the AR and SMG category we have the issue that the light pen weapons don't have a higher damage per shot that matters, infact some of them such as the sickle have low enough damage per shot that they're actually worse than normal.

At one point I put together a lil chart of the shots to kill all enemies with all weapons to all body parts since I got bored and I like numbers. Against just about everything there's literally zero reason you'd want the base liberator over the liberator penetrator. The sickle is even worse than any of the other assault rifles because it's down at 55 damage, prompting it to take more hits against most enemies than the liberator, or even the liberator penetrator would take.

Also for reference the sickle is 20 times more inaccurate than the liberator penetrator, or 5 times more inaccurate than the base liberator, it's even twice as inaccurate as the liberator carbine. Since that's also a relevant thing to note is that the weapons have spread horizontally and vertically and the medium pen options tend to also be more accurate. Even if you have perfect aim, try shooting a devastator head 100m away, the liberator penetrator kills it very easily and quickly while the sickle has to spray at it waiting for hits to land.



Besides this, baseline "viability" isn't really relevant at all, you can get through dif 10 without firing your gun if you really want to, the question of balancing weapons is why would you take one gun over another. There's no reason right now to bring the liberator over the liberator penetrator for example, it's not killing a single enemy faster than the liberator, it doesn't have more ammo, it is less accurate, has a worse scope, the only thing you could really bring up at all is that it has slightly less recoil, though then we look at the tenderizer which has even less recoil and more damage per shot so that it actually can kill things faster than the liberator while being more ammo efficient about it.

Technically speaking, you can buff every weapon in the game as long as it's not the crossbow and the game itself won't actually get any harder until any other weapon in the game provides as much utility as that thing does.
Malidictus 27 DIC 2024 a las 8:00 a. m. 
There's nothing wrong with AP2 weapons.

On the bug front, AP2 can kill anything up to Chargers and Spewers quite easily - even Hive Guards. Bug weak points are all durable, so "guns" generally don't work well against them, so AP3 doesn't help AS much against Spewers and up anyway. The game generally wants you to use explosive damage on those.

On the Squid front, AP2 is sufficient for literally everything sans Harvesters. Overseers have AC2 everywhere except the head. Automatic weapons make short work of their ablative armour, so an AP2 rifle is more than good enough. Voteless are unarmoured. Harvesters are a minimum AP3 if you don't want to take forever and a day, but that's one enemy.

On the Bot front is where AP2 weapons come short, but not as short as people think. Troopers are all AC2, so they're obviously killable with AP2 weapons. Devastators have AC3 only on their chest armour. Everything else on them is AC2 and below. You don't need to go for headshots, either. Taking out a leg will kill them. Berserkers are all AC2 and below, though they have just a ton of health.

Scout Striders, on the other hand, don't have any AP2 weak points from the front, as far as I'm aware. The shield is AC4, the crotch and legs are AC3. You can pop the pilot but that's not easy. Not sure about the fully-enclosed Scout Striders. I believe the rockets on the sides of those are AC2. Hulks have an AC2 weak point on the back, but that's usually not practical. Tanks and up generally don't have any AC2 weak points.

In short, AP2 weapons work just fine against most factions, but do come up short against Bots, meaning you need an anti-armour Support Weapon.



Publicado originalmente por Dakota:
At one point I put together a lil chart of the shots to kill all enemies with all weapons to all body parts since I got bored and I like numbers. Against just about everything there's literally zero reason you'd want the base liberator over the liberator penetrator. The sickle is even worse than any of the other assault rifles because it's down at 55 damage, prompting it to take more hits against most enemies than the liberator, or even the liberator penetrator would take.

Yeah, if you ignore literally everything else besides damage per shot, perhaps. Most AP3 rifles and SMGs tend to come with smaller magazines, slower rate of fire and generally less ammo as a result. Meanwhile, AP2 rifles and SMGs... do vary in terms of performance, but quite a few have generally higher DPS than their AP3 counterparts. When fighting unarmoured enemies like bugs and Illuminate, bringing AP3 weapons is taking a handicap for no reason.



Publicado originalmente por Dakota:
Also for reference the sickle is 20 times more inaccurate than the liberator penetrator, or 5 times more inaccurate than the base liberator, it's even twice as inaccurate as the liberator carbine. Since that's also a relevant thing to note is that the weapons have spread horizontally and vertically and the medium pen options tend to also be more accurate. Even if you have perfect aim, try shooting a devastator head 100m away, the liberator penetrator kills it very easily and quickly while the sickle has to spray at it waiting for hits to land.

How are you calculating that? "Times more inaccurate" is a really strange unit to cite here, as it... kind of doesn't mean anything.
Última edición por Malidictus; 27 DIC 2024 a las 8:05 a. m.
Dakota 27 DIC 2024 a las 8:00 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Axis of Lint:
Publicado originalmente por Dundo:

In an avg pub 10 game there's 0 chance you'll find anyone running light-pen. Think of the Adjudicator for a moment, it deals more damage than most light pen primaries and comes with medium pen, it doesn't have high recoil and it's generally more ammo efficient to run than light-pen and deals with a wider range of enemies.

There's no chance that giving light-pen weapons more damage would make them prioritised over medium pen weapons because the boon of medium pen is already high as is. If higher damage was such a massive deal Tenderizer should be a top 10 pick which it really isn't. Higher damage light pen weapons would still struggle with a wide range of enemies but it would also be more rewarding to pick in other extremes and even become rewarding for more skilled players.

Are you... are you kidding? There's *obviously* more things to consider than damage. Why you keep picking a single value and saying that it's all that matters I don't know.

I've repeatedly pointed out that your entire loadout matters when picking weapons.

Also, the adjudicator is a terrible pick, it badly needs a rebalance.

The 'boon of medium pen' is not as significant as you think. What can you kill with medium armour pen that you can't with light? Reinforced rocket striders are the only standout example I can think of.

Reinforced rocket striders, gunships, basic troopers that have an armor vest on, hive guards, bile spewers, stalkers, overseers, watchers, harvesters all go down much easier with medium pen. Devastators you wanna aim head for, but medium pen options like dominator can stagger with a chest shot too, just making things easier.
Dakota 27 DIC 2024 a las 8:04 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Malidictus:
There's nothing wrong with AP2 weapons.

On the bug front, AP2 can kill anything up to Chargers and Spewers quite easily - even Hive Guards. Bug weak points are all durable, so "guns" generally don't work well against them, so AP3 doesn't help AS much against Spewers and up anyway. The game generally wants you to use explosive damage on those.

On the Squid front, AP2 is sufficient for literally everything sans Harvesters. Overseers have AC2 everywhere except the head. Automatic weapons make short work of their ablative armour, so an AP2 rifle is more than good enough. Voteless are unarmoured. Harvesters are a minimum AP3 if you don't want to take forever and a day, but that's one enemy.

On the Bot front is where AP2 weapons come short, but not as short as people think. Troopers are all AC2, so they're obviously killable with AP2 weapons. Devastators have AC3 only on their chest armour. Everything else on them is AC2 and below. You don't need to go for headshots, either. Taking out a leg will kill them. Berserkers are all AC2 and below, though they have just a ton of health.

Scout Striders, on the other hand, don't have any AP2 weak points from the front, as far as I'm aware. The shield is AC4, the crotch and legs are AC3. You can pop the pilot but that's not easy. Not sure about the fully-enclosed Scout Striders. I believe the rockets on the sides of those are AC2. Hulks have an AC2 weak point on the back, but that's usually not practical. Tanks and up generally don't have any AC2 weak points.

In short, AP2 weapons work just fine against most factions, but do come up short against Bots, meaning you need an anti-armour Support Weapon.

Bots is like the place I don't mind light pen as much comparatively. AP2 weapons suck pretty bad for the most part though. I think just about any time I go into bugs and I see I'm on a hive guard spam or bile spewer spam planet I sure do wish I had brought at least a medium MG instead of a stalwart. On bots I can at least just spray at the weakspots they have since they aren't more durable than the medium armored parts.
Axis of Lint 27 DIC 2024 a las 8:10 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Dakota:
I think just about any time I go into bugs and I see I'm on a hive guard spam or bile spewer spam planet I sure do wish I had brought at least a medium MG instead of a stalwart.

If this is where you argument comes from, I finally see the problem. I take a higher pen support weapon to complement my lower pen primary.

Hence why I talked so much about the fact that you can't choose your loadout in a vacuum.
Axis of Lint 27 DIC 2024 a las 8:11 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Malidictus:

Yeah, if you ignore literally everything else besides damage per shot, perhaps. Most AP3 rifles and SMGs tend to come with smaller magazines, slower rate of fire and generally less ammo as a result. Meanwhile, AP2 rifles and SMGs... do vary in terms of performance, but quite a few have generally higher DPS than their AP3 counterparts. When fighting unarmoured enemies like bugs and Illuminate, bringing AP3 weapons is taking a handicap for no reason.

Finally someone who gets it, my god.
Axis of Lint 27 DIC 2024 a las 8:21 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Dakota:
Publicado originalmente por Axis of Lint:

Are you... are you kidding? There's *obviously* more things to consider than damage. Why you keep picking a single value and saying that it's all that matters I don't know.

I've repeatedly pointed out that your entire loadout matters when picking weapons.

Also, the adjudicator is a terrible pick, it badly needs a rebalance.

The 'boon of medium pen' is not as significant as you think. What can you kill with medium armour pen that you can't with light? Reinforced rocket striders are the only standout example I can think of.

Reinforced rocket striders, gunships, basic troopers that have an armor vest on, hive guards, bile spewers, stalkers, overseers, watchers, harvesters all go down much easier with medium pen. Devastators you wanna aim head for, but medium pen options like dominator can stagger with a chest shot too, just making things easier.

Gunships are a very poor example and personally I feel using primaries against them is a bad choice. A single well placed railgun shot will take out a gunship versus firing any kind of primary.

Trooper heads are still unarmoured and still the thing I hit with no issues so that's a moot point.

Bile Spewers and Hive guard I kill with either my support weapon, grenades or a stratagem (I run strafing run a lot for this reason).

Stalkers aren't medium armoured.

Overseers I run the purifier or MG43 because light pen is possible by largely not useful vs them
Watchers die just fine with the sickle I have no idea what you mean, they have no medium armour on them at all.
Harvesters, again I usually run the MG43 on Illuminate so this is a non-issue for me and I don't know why you'd run medium armour pen just to kill them tbh,

Considering the Illuminate only have four mobs at the moment they're very much an outlier since three of the four are armoured.

At this point you're conflating two variables together and your argument isn't sound. You can either argue about medium armour pen or you can argue about damage, but you can't argue that light pen is useless because of damage *and* armour pen, because they two things aren't linked, even if the JAR, eruptor and crossbow do significantly more damage per shot than light pen weapons because not all medium armour pen weapons do 200+ damage a shot.
Dakota 27 DIC 2024 a las 8:21 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Malidictus:
Publicado originalmente por Dakota:
At one point I put together a lil chart of the shots to kill all enemies with all weapons to all body parts since I got bored and I like numbers. Against just about everything there's literally zero reason you'd want the base liberator over the liberator penetrator. The sickle is even worse than any of the other assault rifles because it's down at 55 damage, prompting it to take more hits against most enemies than the liberator, or even the liberator penetrator would take.

Yeah, if you ignore literally everything else besides damage per shot, perhaps. Most AP3 rifles and SMGs tend to come with smaller magazines, slower rate of fire and generally less ammo as a result. Meanwhile, AP2 rifles and SMGs... do vary in terms of performance, but quite a few have generally higher DPS than their AP3 counterparts. When fighting unarmoured enemies like bugs and Illuminate, bringing AP3 weapons is taking a handicap for no reason.



Publicado originalmente por Dakota:
Also for reference the sickle is 20 times more inaccurate than the liberator penetrator, or 5 times more inaccurate than the base liberator, it's even twice as inaccurate as the liberator carbine. Since that's also a relevant thing to note is that the weapons have spread horizontally and vertically and the medium pen options tend to also be more accurate. Even if you have perfect aim, try shooting a devastator head 100m away, the liberator penetrator kills it very easily and quickly while the sickle has to spray at it waiting for hits to land.

How are you calculating that? "Times more inaccurate" is a really strange unit to cite here, as it... kind of doesn't mean anything.


DPS isn't real, enemies don't have infinite health, they have set health values. If an enemy has 100 health and you have a gun that does 50 damage and a gun that does 90 damage they're both taking the same amount of shots to kill the target. This issue pops up a lot with most of the light pen weapons in the game. A devastator head has 110 health for example, every AR kills them in two hits to the head, as does every SMG. A warrior has 150 health on its head, a liberator and a liberator penetrator kill it in 3 hits to the head, adjudicators and tenderizers kill it in 2 hits to the head, it's the same thing. Scavengers have 60 health so everything but the sickle kills it in 1 hit while the sickle is twice as bad as everything else against them. Hunters have 160, so similar deal as the warrior heads with the 3 shots or 2 shots taken.

As for smaller mags or lower rates of fire. Lib pen vs liberator has same values for all those Lib carbine has the higher rates of fire but then the recoil's much higher so if you're really using that extra DPS there you're generally gonna be missing more shots due to recoil, honestly I get faster TTK against most things with a base liberator. In general I'd skip the considerations of the small mags and rates of fire anyway since the medium pen weapons tend to make up for that in their efficiency at killing things anyway, and besides if we really cared at all about either of those metrics we'd run the crossbow and purifier which have vastly better ammo economies and amounts of damage they pump out in a mag, both of which are medium pen and explosive. I'm taking a handicap for no reason whenever I decide to not take those weapons, infact for the most part even considering the weaker AP3 options, if we consider the damage thresholds I'm not really killing chaff slower than the AP2 options do, and I would make up any potential losses in being able to kill medium enemies much faster anyway.

As for the second question:
Guns have accuracy values that aren't listed in game, many stats aren't listed fully ingame, you can see accuracy values here: https://invadersfromplanet.space/helldivers-2/#
Axis of Lint 27 DIC 2024 a las 8:23 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Dakota:
In general I'd skip the considerations of the small mags and rates of fire anyway

"This part ruins my argument so please ignore it"
Valhalla Awaits 27 DIC 2024 a las 8:24 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Dundo:
Title, they need far more damage or need to be converted to medium pen.
There is 0 use for light pen weapons as is.

Generally speaking, your right. However there are exceptions. My favorite weapon is the sickle. Which is a light pen energy weapon that has infinite ammunition and good damage to compensate for the godawful light armor penetration. And while it's awful against the swarms of armored enemies, it makes quick work of all the swarm enemies. Then bring a weapon with med/armor pen as a support weapon, or something like Strafing Run to deal with the overarmored stuff.

Honestly light armor pen primaries will suffice against bugs and illuminate, it's only when fighting bots that s**t has WAY too much armor to be using light pen stuff.
Dakota 27 DIC 2024 a las 8:25 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Axis of Lint:
Publicado originalmente por Dakota:
I think just about any time I go into bugs and I see I'm on a hive guard spam or bile spewer spam planet I sure do wish I had brought at least a medium MG instead of a stalwart.

If this is where you argument comes from, I finally see the problem. I take a higher pen support weapon to complement my lower pen primary.

Hence why I talked so much about the fact that you can't choose your loadout in a vacuum.

If we're stuck taking a support weapon to make up for the primary weapon being bad at killing things, then we lack a support weapon for killing heavy enemies like bile titans and chargers and such.

If I'm considering meta on bugs, crossbow 100% for the utility in closing bug holes, 1-2 shotting any of the medium enemies, taking out whole patrols in a shot or two, being able to kill chargers with 3 shots to the back, being able to kill impalers with a few hits to the head, and then I can bring along a recoillless rifle to deal with BTs and kill chargers faster. Could also do the EAT+arc thrower combo if I wanted to focus on chaff clear since arc thrower can deal with entire bug breaches on its own taking out medium and light enemies without ever reloading and stun and kill chargers and only can't deal with BTs and impalers, strafing run can deal with the impalers quickly and EATs the BTs.
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