nProtect Gameguard?

[ObKid09]

Hey I wanted to ask about the anti-cheat this game is going have. I'm going to be honest I've never played any game with it, so I'm at a total loss as to why it's bad.

If someone wouldn't mind giving me a TLDR on what's wrong with it?

[Aoroi]

Same here, I never played (knowingly) a game that had this. I commented about accessibility issues (macro keyboards and such) but commenting here to see if someone can give some technical info on it but in layman's speech.

[Kiggles]

It's not especially better or worse than any other kernel-level anti-cheat. ALL of them inherently have complete read/write access to everything (EVERYTHING) on your PC, including keystrokes. So it boils down to a matter of trust.

Is security a particular concern for you? If so, how much?
Do you trust the developers? When I ask that, I do not mean trust them not to spy; I mean do you trust them to secure software installed with maximally elevated privileges?
Odds are you already have a similarly invasive anti-cheat installed.
Easy Anti-Cheat
Battle eye
EA AntiCheat
PunkBuster
Ricochet
Vanguard
Mihoyo Protect2
XIGNCODE3

https://levvvel.com/games-with-kernel-level-anti-cheat-software/
How many different parties are you comfortable with complete access to your computer?
1?
15?
0?
Remember, each of these could have a vulnerability a 3rd party could exploit for the same access. The more you have, the less secure your system becomes by virtue of getting attackers more possible vulnerabilities. It's the same with all software, these applications just have a LOT of privileges... as in literally ALL of the privileges.

Why people have problems with Gameguard specifically? Mostly because of Steamdeck(Linux) support. It can work on linux, but it depends on the game developer to allow.
Otherwise, GG has a long history. That's a credit.
But it is a long history of Korean free2play MMOs. That's.... a thing.
It has suffered a vulnerability being exposed in the past. It's fixed. I don't know if that means its inherently any less secure; nothing is perfectly secure.

Only you can do you.

[Brother Spartan]

TLDR From what I know.

People reported it bricked some PCs destroying harddrives/ssds and bluescreens When it was added to a game. Its kernel level so has full use of your PC like EAC or vanguard.
It was impossible to uninstall normally, you had to download something from the website of the anti cheat to do so. It was always running even without the game in question. (like Vanguard From RIOT) The anti cheat currently is primarily used in Korean/Chinese/Japanese MMOs.

Personally, I think the uproar wouldn't be as bad if they picked a better/ well known anti cheat like Easy Anti Cheat. But they picked one people have very little trust over/never heard.

[Edam1995]

Originally posted by Spartan:

TLDR From what I know.

People reported it bricked some PCs destroying harddrives/ssds and bluescreens When it was added to a game. Its kernel level so has full use of your PC like EAC or vanguard.
It was impossible to uninstall normally, you had to download something from the website of the anti cheat to do so. It was always running even without the game in question. (like Vanguard From RIOT) The anti cheat currently is primarily used in Korean/Chinese/Japanese MMOs.

Personally, I think the uproar wouldn't be as bad if they picked a better/ well known anti cheat like Easy Anti Cheat. But they picked one people have very little trust over/never heard.

except there is no reputable info it did brick any pc

[Mu'Ammar of Carthus]

Originally posted by Edam1995:

Originally posted by Spartan:

TLDR From what I know.

People reported it bricked some PCs destroying harddrives/ssds and bluescreens When it was added to a game. Its kernel level so has full use of your PC like EAC or vanguard.
It was impossible to uninstall normally, you had to download something from the website of the anti cheat to do so. It was always running even without the game in question. (like Vanguard From RIOT) The anti cheat currently is primarily used in Korean/Chinese/Japanese MMOs.

Personally, I think the uproar wouldn't be as bad if they picked a better/ well known anti cheat like Easy Anti Cheat. But they picked one people have very little trust over/never heard.

except there is no reputable info it did brick any pc

There's much fewer "reputable" info that it didn't.
And, that's the cheapest anti-cheat in the market that no "reputable" developper is using. Only games that clearly couldn't care less about the consequences to their user machines.

Are you people that braindead that you can't connect those dots that are right next to each other with zero obstacle between them?

[Timeraider]

Originally posted by Mu'Ammar of Carthus:

Originally posted by Edam1995:

except there is no reputable info it did brick any pc

There's much fewer "reputable" info that it didn't.
And, that's the cheapest anti-cheat in the market that no "reputable" developper is using. Only games that clearly couldn't care less about the consequences to their user machines.

Are you people that braindead that you can't connect those dots that are right next to each other with zero obstacle between them?

There is a sentence in the IT world thats been proven over and over.
"Assumptions are deadly"
No matter how easy you think an "connection" is made

[Kiggles]

Originally posted by Timeraider:

There is a sentence in the IT world thats been proven over and over.
"Assumptions are deadly"
No matter how easy you think an "connection" is made

There's another sentence in the IT world that might also fit here. "Never trust the client". Example cited for issues this invasive tool is 'intended' to curb are situations like non-cheaters receiving 9999 research points and other collectibles, ruining progression; when the reality of the matter is our clients never should have been trusting each other to such a degree if Arrowhead was practicing this philosophy.

but let's keep arguing whether skeptics of the decision are justified in their concern over whether anyone has been affected or not. Because we shouldn't be concerned about Mutually Assured Nuclear Destruction until it happens.

The severity of Ring 0 access is at question, not the frequency of adverse effects. We don't need ANY negative examples to be justifiably concerned.

[FATE]

Originally posted by Treat (Kiggles):

It's not especially better or worse than any other kernel-level anti-cheat. ALL of them inherently have complete read/write access to everything (EVERYTHING) on your PC, including keystrokes. So it boils down to a matter of trust.

Is security a particular concern for you? If so, how much?
Do you trust the developers? When I ask that, I do not mean trust them not to spy; I mean do you trust them to secure software installed with maximally elevated privileges?
Odds are you already have a similarly invasive anti-cheat installed.
Easy Anti-Cheat
Battle eye
EA AntiCheat
PunkBuster
Ricochet
Vanguard
Mihoyo Protect2
XIGNCODE3

https://levvvel.com/games-with-kernel-level-anti-cheat-software/
How many different parties are you comfortable with complete access to your computer?
1?
15?
0?
Remember, each of these could have a vulnerability a 3rd party could exploit for the same access. The more you have, the less secure your system becomes by virtue of getting attackers more possible vulnerabilities. It's the same with all software, these applications just have a LOT of privileges... as in literally ALL of the privileges.

Why people have problems with Gameguard specifically? Mostly because of Steamdeck(Linux) support. It can work on linux, but it depends on the game developer to allow.
Otherwise, GG has a long history. That's a credit.
But it is a long history of Korean free2play MMOs. That's.... a thing.
It has suffered a vulnerability being exposed in the past. It's fixed. I don't know if that means its inherently any less secure; nothing is perfectly secure.

Only you can do you.

but eac arent kernal level anticheat, not sure about punkbusters, eac only launch with the game exe files

[Kiggles]

Originally posted by FATE:

but eac arent kernal level anticheat, not sure about punkbusters, eac only launch with the game exe files

Every single anti-cheat I listed is installed at Ring 0 (Kernel level, aka: "rootkits")
I don't mean this as a jab, but if you think EAC is not installed to Ring 0 and that is a concern for you, you may want to review your system and what is installed on it.
https://levvvel.com/games-with-kernel-level-anti-cheat-software/

[FATE]

Originally posted by Treat (Kiggles):

Originally posted by FATE:

but eac arent kernal level anticheat, not sure about punkbusters, eac only launch with the game exe files

Every single anti-cheat I listed is installed at Ring 0 (Kernel level, aka: "rootkits")
I don't mean this as a jab, but if you think EAC is not installed to Ring 0 and that is a concern for you, you may want to review your system and what is installed on it.
https://levvvel.com/games-with-kernel-level-anti-cheat-software/

just realised that but i guess thats what im willing to compromise to without a better solution, what i draw the line is those 24/7 kernel anti cheat like valorant, at least with eac, they only have access when you launch the game, sorta like a gentlemen's agreement, sure if they had malicious intent, they can get every information they want, unlike those launches with your system and had full access to your pc at all time, im not saying im ok with kernel level anti cheat but i see no reason of those running all time anti cheat, too much compromises with very little added benefits

[DudeBro69]

nProtect GG also installs a windows service that is always running even when the game doesnt run.

This was happening in Undecember recently and many older games like PSO2 and Aion etc

EAC doesnt have any service that runs outside of game usage.
Which means you just dont do your banking and other private stuff when playing EAC games. Do your online banking after closing the game

BUT, using GG you cant do anything at all except gaming on your computer unless you completely uninstall GG using the uninstaller tool.

[Kiggles]

^^^ Why are you making all of that up. EAC installs as a service also. Battleye, etc. That's just how these things work. Check for yourself winkey+r services.msc See if they're installed/running. They should NOT be running.
GG, depending on the game, also stops its associated service after the game closes.

Originally posted by FATE:

i draw the line is those 24/7 kernel anti cheat like valorant, at least with eac, they only have access when you launch the game, sorta like a gentlemen's agreement,
I also grant some liberties when it comes to competitive games; I get ya.

More to your concerns then, supposedly GG only runs when clients are running.

There are some more consequential differences, but I think some of that is contingent on how GG is implemented by the licensing developer. For point of comparison, EAC naturally only runs with protected applications. It is "passive" protection, only blocking network access for the protected app, (and reporting the incident). GG is "active' by design. Both "can" terminate and even delete offending software/files by virtue of their root access, but I think EAC expressly prohibits this in their license. GG does not, MAYBE leaving it up to the developers. I admit, I don't know the specifics. Arrowhead has at least confirmed their implementation of GG will not run except when the game is running.

Put it on hold. See how it goes. I'm waiting to see how the campaign works in practice. You may be more concerned with how 'passive' the anti-cheat is executed.

[McDinglefart]

Originally posted by ObKid09:

Hey I wanted to ask about the anti-cheat this game is going have. I'm going to be honest I've never played any game with it, so I'm at a total loss as to why it's bad.

If someone wouldn't mind giving me a TLDR on what's wrong with it?

Does not prevent cheating, used in mostly cheap Korean mmorpgs because license is cheap (still doesn't prevent cheating, just look up lineage with boting situation), can cause technical issues (look through uncharted waters steam forums), adds additional layer to PC security vulnerability.

Originally posted by Edam1995:

Originally posted by Spartan:

TLDR From what I know.

People reported it bricked some PCs destroying harddrives/ssds and bluescreens When it was added to a game. Its kernel level so has full use of your PC like EAC or vanguard.
It was impossible to uninstall normally, you had to download something from the website of the anti cheat to do so. It was always running even without the game in question. (like Vanguard From RIOT) The anti cheat currently is primarily used in Korean/Chinese/Japanese MMOs.

Personally, I think the uproar wouldn't be as bad if they picked a better/ well known anti cheat like Easy Anti Cheat. But they picked one people have very little trust over/never heard.

except there is no reputable info it did brick any pc

At least in the past it did. That's why it's reputation is so bad.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/224320/discussions/0/666825525201347433/

And as wiki says, it scan all PC data and can make adjustments to that data. Data = everything on your PC.
So if it thinks some driver necessary to run your OS is faulty on your PC (cheat) it can block it and cause your OS to fail.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NProtect_GameGuard

[agentkido]

Originally posted by Treat (Kiggles):

It's not especially better or worse than any other kernel-level anti-cheat. ALL of them inherently have complete read/write access to everything (EVERYTHING) on your PC, including keystrokes. So it boils down to a matter of trust.

Is security a particular concern for you? If so, how much?
Do you trust the developers? When I ask that, I do not mean trust them not to spy; I mean do you trust them to secure software installed with maximally elevated privileges?
Odds are you already have a similarly invasive anti-cheat installed.
Easy Anti-Cheat
Battle eye
EA AntiCheat
PunkBuster
Ricochet
Vanguard
Mihoyo Protect2
XIGNCODE3

https://levvvel.com/games-with-kernel-level-anti-cheat-software/
How many different parties are you comfortable with complete access to your computer?
1?
15?
0?
Remember, each of these could have a vulnerability a 3rd party could exploit for the same access. The more you have, the less secure your system becomes by virtue of getting attackers more possible vulnerabilities. It's the same with all software, these applications just have a LOT of privileges... as in literally ALL of the privileges.

Why people have problems with Gameguard specifically? Mostly because of Steamdeck(Linux) support. It can work on linux, but it depends on the game developer to allow.
Otherwise, GG has a long history. That's a credit.
But it is a long history of Korean free2play MMOs. That's.... a thing.
It has suffered a vulnerability being exposed in the past. It's fixed. I don't know if that means its inherently any less secure; nothing is perfectly secure.

Only you can do you.

It's weird how people have a big problem with GG but ricochet(valorant's AC) is completely fine with them. Also Id go as far as saying that XIGNCODE3 is probably worse than GG because it slows performance.