Something has to be done about jet.

[Sticks]

Her special has absolutely no counterplay. If the enemy tries to come close to grab it I can see them coming and know all they can do is grab so I just hit it right before they do to get a free stun and kill them easily, if they don't try and grab it I have infinite possibilities to hit them with a shot they can't possibly predict by chaining bubbles and having no hitlag. If I basically just let them grab the bubble that also gives the ball right back to me as I know they only have 2 predictable angles to throw from that I can easily take advantage of. That leaves them with just guessing whether or not I'm going to use the special and go for a preemptive grab before hitlag is even over in which case I can easily kill them by just not using my special at 4 bars.

As someone who likes to random I feel like a scumbag whenever I get her because her special is better than any other characters by miles and even though I don't like going easy on people I feel the need to not use her special to its fullest potential just to level the playing field and not feel like a ♥♥♥♥.

If it were up to me I would make it so she can only grab the ball while its in the bubble just like the enemy can, she can still wait until the ball goes out of the bubble in order to chain it into another bubble or hit it without hitlag but it would give the opponent the opportunity for counterplay while its in the bubble rather than her special giving her complete control over the ball every time which no other character has the capability to do. That way she would have to try and make distance from her enemy to use her special effectively kind of like sonatas special.

[aTastyT0ast]

It's funny how nobody complains about candyman's special even though it has way more dangerous combos... anyway...

The point of Jet's special is to not let the enemy have it that easily, you gotta respect your opponent by not standing next to her all the time and try to steal her ball. It's pretty lowly to keep staying by the opponent.

If you keep your distance, reacting / reading further attacks is way easier and you can cover more angles too.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by aTastyT0ast:

It's funny how nobody complains about candyman's special even though it has way more dangerous combos... anyway...

The point of Jet's special is to not let the enemy have it that easily, you gotta respect your opponent by not standing next to her all the time and try to steal her ball. It's pretty lowly to keep staying by the opponent.

If you keep your distance, reacting / reading further attacks is way easier and you can cover more angles too.

When I do a combo with candymans special it actually requires effort and good positioning and I feel like I accomplished something because they could take it away from me if I hit it wrong, doing a combo with jets special is a no brainer and just gives me a free hit almost every time because of how erratic the balls speed is as it goes from being in the bubble to out of the bubble and then returning to normal speed making it difficult for anyone to predict whats coming and impossible to take away from me while I'm doing it. Candymans special isn't even comparable to jets special, his is high risk high reward where as hers is no risk high reward.

[Microsoft Outlook 2013]

Originally posted by aTastyT0ast:

It's funny how nobody complains about candyman's special even though it has way more dangerous combos... anyway...

Pretty much what Sticks said. Candyman's special can be INSANE... granted you've practiced your candy chains, and you're positioned correctly, and your opponnet doesn't catch your ball.

Jet and Candyman are my two most played characters, and honestly, Jet's just super easy. She's what I play when I want to relax. I don't think she's "overpowered" but I can easily understand why a lot of people think so.

[metaphist]

Yeah, I don't know, her special doesn't even seem like the most effective at killing. It's more of a noob killer since most players are just wildly aggressive and rush all the time. It's great for taking care of those players, but players that know angles can just sit back and catch afterward, so it's more of a control / pacing / setup tool

Compare this to, say, Raptor's special, which is an actual kill shot in most situations, since it's angle spread is insane and can't really be covered. Dice's special is un-reactable at close range, and Jet's is about as reactable as it gets. It's just classic example of tech that seems good in the beginning of a game's life cycle.

Just my 2 cents.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by metaphist:

Yeah, I don't know, her special doesn't even seem like the most effective at killing. It's more of a noob killer since most players are just wildly aggressive and rush all the time. It's great for taking care of those players, but players that know angles can just sit back and catch afterward, so it's more of a control / pacing / setup tool

Compare this to, say, Raptor's special, which is an actual kill shot in most situations, since it's angle spread is insane and can't really be covered. Dice's special is un-reactable at close range, and Jet's is about as reactable as it gets. It's just classic example of tech that seems good in the beginning of a game's life cycle.

Just my 2 cents.

Raptors special cancels out hitlag and allows you to change the ball to any direction you want, jets special can do that twice while also allowing you to use down hits which raptor can't do so in my eyes its just the better special overall.

[Mordtziel]

Raptors special cancels out hitlag and allows you to change the ball to any direction you want, jets special can do that twice while also allowing you to use down hits which raptor can't do so in my eyes its just the better special overall.

Raptor's special is miles ahead of jet's. Not only can it cancel hitlag, but it can extend it which in itself can create a much scarier threat. Although jet's can technically extend the hit lag, the point that it's extended to is long enough to give the opponent enough time to both recover and react. Jet's special will never kill on activation.You can always recover before the first bubble hits you. The problem is more that people tend to panic once they've been stunned and end up killing themselves.

The biggest problem I see from people complaining about jet is that they still haven't learned her yet. If you take away her bubble, then she needs to be compensated by giving her something that can get into the back of an opponent because right now, she has nothing in that department which often leads to her relying on the bubble mixups to score a kill against a good player.

However your suggestion here...

If it were up to me I would make it so she can only grab the ball while its in the bubble just like the enemy can, she can still wait until the ball goes out of the bubble in order to chain it into another bubble or hit it without hitlag but it would give the opponent the opportunity for counterplay while its in the bubble rather than her special giving her complete control over the ball every time which no other character has the capability to do. That way she would have to try and make distance from her enemy to use her special effectively kind of like sonatas special.

...leads me to believe that you've never even played against a good jet and you're dying to the ones that just spam at their own bubble which should be ultra predictable. And if a jet is forced to wait every time before she can hit or chain the bubble, this would mean that she could never special if the opponent wasn't across the stage from her or she would always throw it immediately after bubbling which limits her special pretty damned hard.

[Sticks]

Raptor's special is miles ahead of jet's. Not only can it cancel hitlag, but it can extend it which in itself can create a much scarier threat. Although jet's can technically extend the hit lag, the point that it's extended to is long enough to give the opponent enough time to both recover and react.

Any character can extend hitlag, just hold parry.

Jet's special will never kill on activation.You can always recover before the first bubble hits you. The problem is more that people tend to panic once they've been stunned and end up killing themselves.

I kill people with jets special on activation all the time, so many people just jump right into it because they expected a banger and end up with a slow ass floating ball that they can't avoid in time.

The biggest problem I see from people complaining about jet is that they still haven't learned her yet. If you take away her bubble, then she needs to be compensated by giving her something that can get into the back of an opponent because right now, she has nothing in that department which often leads to her relying on the bubble mixups to score a kill against a good player.

I'm not saying to take away her bubble, I'm saying to take away her ability to deny the opponent from being able to grab the ball entirely by being able to hit it right before they do so they get stunned trying to grab it and die. I've done this to so many people and the win feels totally undeserved every single time.

you've never even played against a good jet and you're dying to the ones that just spam at their own bubble which should be ultra predictable. And if a jet is forced to wait every time before she can hit or chain the bubble, this would mean that she could never special if the opponent wasn't across the stage from her or she would always throw it immediately after bubbling which limits her special pretty damned hard.

I've played matches as jet where I waited until the bubble popped before hitting it again and it played out fine, it was no different than a match as sonata where I need space for my special where the opponent won't just immediately hit it before it even changes directions. It actually felt on par with other characters specials where I had to strategize when I used it instead of just being able to mindlessly use it wherever and whenever because theres nothing the opponent can do to stop it anyway.

[YinYin]

Originally posted by Sticks:

I kill people with jets special on activation all the time, so many people just jump right into it because they expected a banger and end up with a slow ass floating ball that they can't avoid in time.

What's the point here? I don't see how some beginners getting hit by a snail is relevant.

Originally posted by Sticks:

I've played matches as jet where I waited until the bubble popped before hitting it again and it played out fine, it was no different than a match as sonata where I need space for my special where the opponent won't just immediately hit it before it even changes directions.

Sonata's moves so much faster that you don't have to space that much. The bubble phase is slow and long enough that I can run across most stages to reach it and a grab from Jet has no useful options and can be responded to with anything without penalty.

Surely her bubble rehit could be tweaked, but removing it doesn't sound like a good idea.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by YinYin:

Originally posted by Sticks:

I kill people with jets special on activation all the time, so many people just jump right into it because they expected a banger and end up with a slow ass floating ball that they can't avoid in time.

What's the point here? I don't see how some beginners getting hit by a snail is relevant.

Originally posted by Sticks:

I've played matches as jet where I waited until the bubble popped before hitting it again and it played out fine, it was no different than a match as sonata where I need space for my special where the opponent won't just immediately hit it before it even changes directions.

Sonata's moves so much faster that you don't have to space that much. The bubble phase is slow and long enough that I can run across most stages to reach it and a grab from Jet has no useful options and can be responded to with anything without penalty.

Surely her bubble rehit could be tweaked, but removing it doesn't sound like a good idea.

I never get matched against beginners anymore, one of the people that fell into a bubble and died one time wasn't a beginner by any means and he kicked my ass 5-2 when I randomed candyman because he was just better than me and then I got matched with him again and randomed jet and then beat him 5-1 by exploiting the hell out of her special because I was a little salty about losing the previous match. He wasn't playing any worse and I wasn't playing any better, I just happened to get the character that has a ridiculous special that I could use as a crutch to stomp him undeservingly.

When it comes to running across the whole stage to grab it I never saw that happen in the rounds when I tried to only hit the ball after it left the bubble. Though I guess that could be attributed to them being too terrified to even try and grab the bubble knowing that I could just hit it right before they do and kill them so they just tried to keep their distance to give themselves the largest window to react to whatever ridiculous combo I made. I just don't think that any characters special should force the opponent to play that passively in a game where passiveness puts you at an inherent disadvantage. No other characters special prevents the opponent from being able to go on the offensive except hers and its just an unfair advantage.

[YinYin]

Okay, beginner is a subjective term. But if you jump into a bubble activation, that's a beginner mistake for blaze. Little different to hitting a normal parry.

Other than that I don't see spacing as something passive. You have to do it all the time in this game unless you've got a lead to throw away on a 50/50 grab attempt.

[aTastyT0ast]

Originally posted by Sticks:

Candymans special isn't even comparable to jets special, his is high risk high reward where as hers is no risk high reward.

How is Candyman's special high risk? Usually it's easy enough to do a simple candyball without ANY chaining to kill someone.

[Mordtziel]

I've played matches as jet where I waited until the bubble popped before hitting it again and it played out fine, it was no different than a match as sonata where I need space for my special where the opponent won't just immediately hit it before it even changes directions. It actually felt on par with other characters specials where I had to strategize when I used it instead of just being able to mindlessly use it wherever and whenever because theres nothing the opponent can do to stop it anyway.

The only reason you were able to do this is because of the threat of the bubble right now. The simple threat of rebubbling is enough to scare off most players. That said, I play aggressively against jets. As in, I never give them space, and they never get to rebubble. Sure they know the angles I'm going to choose since it's a grab, but if they're a halfway decent player, they're going to know my angle choices anyways even if I were to smash, neutral, or special it myself.

Any character can extend hitlag, just hold parry.

Yes but only Raptor, Grid, Jet, and Candyman can extend the hitlag of their special. And of those, Raptor has it the best. Jet and candy can only do it by hitting the ball again, and in candy's case, parry extending that hit. Grid can opt for a 2nd teleport which just grants that little bit extra time that can catch an opponent in recovery frames if they tried to react to the first teleport. Raptor has full choice of when the ball leaves his hit lag. It's not a static choice of instant or extended. He can release at any point in between. And if someone reacts to the instant part, then they will die to an extended.

I kill people with jets special on activation all the time, so many people just jump right into it because they expected a banger and end up with a slow♥♥♥♥♥floating ball that they can't avoid in time.

Yes and I've killed people by hitting them 5 times with a 9 speed straight. Let's nerf straight neutrals for this reason too. You can not use bad players as an example. Nor can you use taking a single stock or even a game off a single good player as an example either. Everyone makes mistakes and tilting can easily last for not just one match, but multiple matches. Some people are just bad against certain characters to a point that they lose to even bad ones. I have a problem like this. It's with doombox. Even braindead bunt smashers on doombox will give me issues. But I'm not here arguing that doombox needs a nerf over it. I understand that it's my personal issue.



Everything said, even if Jet's special was a bit on the strong side, most good players don't even rate her in the top 5. That goes to Dice, Raptor, Candyman, Switch, and Doombox. So you're asking for a nerf to a character that's currently below average. Which is ludicrous.

[Warhammer 40k Enjoyer]

I honestly dont see any problems with Jet

[Sticks]

The only reason you were able to do this is because of the threat of the bubble right now. The simple threat of rebubbling is enough to scare off most players. That said, I play aggressively against jets. As in, I never give them space, and they never get to rebubble. Sure they know the angles I'm going to choose since it's a grab, but if they're a halfway decent player, they're going to know my angle choices anyways even if I were to smash, neutral, or special it myself.

I don't think jets special should have that threat before she even does anything, no other characters special makes people that scared to try and take the ball away and it gives her an unfair advantage. Also I don't know what kind of psychic you are but no matter how good you are you'll never know the angle choices someone is going to make in a neutral hit, you can make an educated guess but you can't know for sure.

only Raptor, Grid, Jet, and Candyman can extend the hitlag of their special. And of those, Raptor has it the best. Jet and candy can only do it by hitting the ball again, and in candy's case, parry extending that hit. Grid can opt for a 2nd teleport which just grants that little bit extra time that can catch an opponent in recovery frames if they tried to react to the first teleport. Raptor has full choice of when the ball leaves his hit lag. It's not a static choice of instant or extended. He can release at any point in between. And if someone reacts to the instant part, then they will die to an extended.

I still don't see how thats any different than parrying to extend hitlag, you can release it at any point in between by just not parrying anymore. Its not a static choice of instant or extended either. I don't see holding down raptors special as any different than just holding down parry on a bunted hit.

I've killed people by hitting them 5 times with a 9 speed straight. Let's nerf straight neutrals for this reason too. You can not use bad players as an example. Nor can you use taking a single stock or even a game off a single good player as an example either. Everyone makes mistakes and tilting can easily last for not just one match, but multiple matches. Some people are just bad against certain characters to a point that they lose to even bad ones. I have a problem like this. It's with doombox. Even braindead bunt smashers on doombox will give me issues. But I'm not here arguing that doombox needs a nerf over it. I understand that it's my personal issue.

I consistently beat people I wouldn't usually be able to beat when I random jet, sure the top 10 players are wizards that will kick my ass no matter what I play where I hardly even get a chance to use a special but for the other 99% of people in the game my odds of winning are much better playing jet than any other character and thats because of her special and not anything to do with me. I hate that and wish she was on par with the other characters because winning a game and feeling like I didn't deserve it is a frustrating experience that I never used to feel in the original lethal league and its the only thing I hate about blaze.

Everything said, even if Jet's special was a bit on the strong side, most good players don't even rate her in the top 5. That goes to Dice, Raptor, Candyman, Switch, and Doombox. So you're asking for a nerf to a character that's currently below average. Which is ludicrous.

People in the tier list thread awhile ago seemed to reach the consensus that jet was the best, I don't know where you're getting your info from but its probably vets from the original game and thats why they think all the old characters are the best because those are the ones they've had the most practice with. I don't even know where anyone is getting the idea that doombox is good though, hes a huge target with bad mobility and a special thats just worse than latch and his angles aren't even that great to compensate, hes the character I dread randoming the most and have the easiest time beating when an opponent picks them so from my experience hes the worst character in the game not one of the best. Out of all the characters in the game hes the one I almost never see, where as jet is around 50% of my opponents.

[Mordtziel]

Tier list thread? Are you referring to this thread? A couple of kids with 20 hours on blaze and 0 time on the original game and not one of which is within even the top 1k and none of which have participated in any tournament? My god, not one of them knows the basics of the game much less have the capacity to form a competent tier list. Hell that thread was made a week after release!

Is Jet a noob stomping character? Yes, she is. And this is where her perceived "overpowered" special is coming from. It's that people don't know what to do when faced with her special more than her special being good. If a character was implemented whose special ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ split the ball into a bunch of copies forming a rainbow but the only real one was the one of their color it would be seen as extremely op too to a player that doesn't know to just look at the red/blue one. However this is jet, a character that has a very defensive special that you see coming slowly towards you before you die as opposed to say a switch which does a split second overhead smash->special on a bunted ball into the back of your head. And because of this, you're more frustrated than you would be otherwise.

I still don't see how thats any different than parrying to extend hitlag, you can release it at any point in between by just not parrying anymore. Its not a static choice of instant or extended either. I don't see holding down raptors special as any different than just holding down parry on a bunted hit.

It's different because specials are threatening and loud. They can cause your opponent to panic and as such, being able to control when the ball releases is an extremely powerful tool for a special to have.


Here I have an idea for you. Why don't you go and poll the top 100 players for their tier lists and then have them speak on jet's special. Might open your eyes.