Let's talk about class balance

[NeloDante]

In this thread we will talk about the balance between the classes, where they shine and where they flunk. I will try to edit this post with added or better info, I'll try to be as objective as possible and thus I would appreciate help from you all. Also, I'm going to keep it as simple as possible, "words words words" make it a hard read even more when we have to talk about so many things. To help newbies to join the discussion as well I'll avoid calling each weapon for their specific name and call it something anyone can remember (unless the autism of the veteran community here forces me to do it).

It goes without saying that balancing is hard and never perfect but maybe we can manage to pin point what needs buffing / nerfing and hopefully give ideas to our devs. I will reserve one post per class for easier identification and faster editing.

Engineer

The Engineer when in contact with Driller / Gunner his platforms are not needed except if there's a scout that can give use to his platforms. Thanks to the new upgrades, it has an use besides that: reducing fall damage. The platform gun does its job and has its niche, however the Engineer has turret(s) that help with enemy detection while mining and can take down whatever comes closest.

Sentries it seems that Engineer has two options now:
A) Pure damage single turret. Sentry will actually kill stuff while having a lot of ammo efficiency, weakness of not being able to cover all the area. - Offensive playstyle
B) Double turret stun. Sentries will CC everything making it easier to breathe, weakness of high ammo cost and low damage. - Defensive playstyle.

Shotgun: Strong weapon up close that has a nice combo with the sentry. Great damage, low range, ok-ish ammo capacity.

SMG: Neat smg with a lot of utility, OK damage, good ammo capacity and compared to the shotgun it has obviously more range.

Comparing the two main weapons: There's a reason why many engineers prefer the SMG over the Shotgun, you can manage the ammo better, brings a lot of utility for everyone and you can poke spitters if noone is able to. In other words, the shotgun may need some love so people can start thinking what weapon to bring instead of what seems to be the best at the moment. I do believe the only thing the shotgun may need to make it more attractive is having more ammo capacity.

Granade Launcher: Strong weapon at any distance, no requirements, big damage, low ammo capacity. Good at taking down waves of warriors, weakening praetorians. Bad against macteras (mostly because it's a waste of ammo since it's gonna hit only one).

Breach Cutter aka Laser/Beam gun: Strong weapon close to medium range, great damage (lower than the GL), requirement of enemies being in a straight line, can go through walls / structures, good ammo capacity. Good at taking ANYTHING as long as it's a straight line. Near the end of the beam's life, it moves slower meaning that it will deal more damage if the engineer manages to understand the distance properly.

Comparing the two sub-weapons: These two are in my opinion the most balanced sub-weapons of the game. Both bring a lot to the table and both have ups and downs that is up to the user to fill. I bring the breach cutter with me more often because it deletes Praetorians better than the GL and I'm not always with a gunner or scout when I play engi. They do not need buffing nor nerfing.

Weapon combinations: Engineer does not suffer from any weapon combination so he's free to take anything with him. However shotgun + breach cutter can be a bit risky since they both are for close combat and will suffer if noone can take care of spitters.

[NeloDante]

Scout

Our blue boy has the best mobility from all the dwarves. His hook even if it needs recharging, is infinite so he can reach almost instantly to any place without spending resources. The scout light plays an important role so we can get rid of leeches, spitters or to spot (Wia don't quote this part to push your agenda) minerals on high places. His granades are unique since unlike the rest, it slows down (and can weaken) the bugs.
This makes the Scout a great support class and it's something that we have to take into account.

Deepcore aka assault rifle: good accuracy, long range, slow rate of fire (without upgrades), mehish damage, good ammo capacity. Let's be honest here, who uses this weapon? If you use this is because you are starting the game or because you don't know how to use the M1000. How can we fix this weapon? In my opinion what this weapon needs is an increase (on the base) of its rate of fire and arguably a slight increase in damage. Its base damage is 11 meanwhile Engineer's SMG is 6+2 elec per tick (base) with a slower fire rate than the Engi's SMG and less total ammo (70). Even if we take into consideration that Scout should deal less damage than the Engi due to mobility reasons the assault rifle doesn't feel like an assault rifle in the slightlest.
I would consider this weapon to be weak.

M1000 aka sniper: best accuracy, best range, massive burst, slow rate of fire (1s per charge shot upgraded), good ammo capacity for what it is but very low for a primary weapon. This weapon is amazing but doesn't fit the slot of "primary" and should be in my opinion, a secondary weapon. It one shots all macteras spitters, two shots bombers, three shots praetorians and makes Dreadnaughts cry.
This weapon is perfect for the Scout, doesn't need buffing nor nerfing, arguably would need to change its slot from primary to secondary.

There's not much to compare between the two. M1000 is worse to kill trash but far better to kill the important targets and the Deepcore is so "meh" that the scout do not have much of a reason to choose it over the M1000. As a support class, you want to carry the M1000 to kill the priority targets while leaving the warriors / swarmers to your teammates which you can safely dodge with your hook.
After the new enemies introduction, we can see how the M1000 outshines even more the deepcore. Hell, even the new sentries of the Engineer deal more damage and have more total ammo than the scout's deepcore

Shotgun: High damage, only close range, ok ammo capacity for a secondary. It deals more damage than the M1000 but requires you to kiss those nasty bugs, Good to clear a threat close to you while the hook is recharging, two shots praetorians. Overall, a great weapon borderline broken if it didn't need the scout to be so close.

Zhukov SMGs: mehish damage (assault rifle has 11 base and Zhukov's 10), really fast rate of fire, low ammo capacity for how fast it consumes it, poor accuracy. Honestly, it feels like a small upgrade from the Deepcore with the exception of its accuracy. Doesn't feel like a secondary weapon but like a primary since if you carry this weapon it is most of the time the main weapon the scout will be using to deal with everything, similar to the assault rifle.
This weapon is alright, maybe it needs more ammo capacity and as the M1000, a slot location change.

There's not much to compare between the sub-weapons because, again, they're way too different. It would be fair to compare the M1000 with the shotgun and the Deepcore with the SMGs, but for some reason the slot location is how it is without making that much of a sense. I know that many of you will defend the Zhukov's being secondary and the M1000 being primary, the point is that they both should occupy the slot of each respective "role": Burst being shotgun/sniper and DPS being deepcore/zhukovs.

Now for weapon combinations. Funny enough, the best loadout could be considered the Sniper+Shotgun and leave most enemies to the other teammates. Using the Assault Rifle / Zhukov is most of the time a WASTE of resupply, no player should be feeling "what a waste" when they see a scout picking ammo neither the scout should be feeling like that. Deepcore + Zhukov makes it for a fun although ineffective combo, you can become a racing car with the two speed buffs and that's about it. M1000 + Zhukov is the standard Scout that can deal with anything, but since the Zhukov's ammo consumption is rather high most often than not you are gonna see the scout crying "No ammo left!" meanwhile the rest of the team has only spent half of their max ammo.

In short. The scout's "pew pews" need some loving because honestly, even if he's the most mobile of all our dwarves, he is by far the weakest. His only place at the moment is as big-threat eliminator and a nitra-slave that will mine everything even on the middle of a wave. This is not what most players expect from a Scout when they start playing. The Scout needs some fixing to avoid this.

[NeloDante]

Gunner

As the name indicates, he's the main damage of the team.

Shield: Unlike before now we have 4 total and get 2 from resupply, however we have a cooldown. Please remember as a gunner to give use to your shields, it can save your team or you can use it to help someone get up and even protect the entire team while grabbing ammo/HP from the ressuply pod.
Side Note: It no longers keeps the Dreadnaught inside, so don't go wasting it against that creature.

Minigun: highest DPS in the game, screws with your vision a bit, starts from awful accuracy to "I wish my M1000 was this accurate", high rate of fire, no need to reload (it overheats though), good ammo capacity. A really good weapon but it's a bit of a shame that you cannot spin to increase the accuracy without wasting ammo first (around 30 bullets wasted everytime you want to spin it), the need to hold the weapon down does not attract that many people and the vision being blocked by such visual effects can make this weapon not that attractive for some meanwhile those that love chaos will enjoy greatly this weapon.
Honestly, I don't think this weapon need bufing nor nerfing, at best reduce the visual effect and give the player an option to not waste ammo to spin it first.

Heavy autocannon: high damage, ok accuracy, slow fire rate to high rate of fire, the slowest reload in the entire game (5s without upgrades), great ammo capacity, small AoE damage. Not much to say besides being a great weapon that needs no buffs nor nerfs.

Comparing the two weapons could be a bit challenging. The minigun has higher DPS but will require far more ammo than the autocannon meaning that the Thunderhead has way better ammo efficiency. The Thunderhead, unlike the minigun, does not waste ammo either to start up however similar to the minigun it has a mechanic of "holding the fire button longer gives you a reward", for the Thunderhead that is rate of fire and with an upgrade even more damage. However the minigun once again wins over the autocannon in terms of reload speed and accuracy.
I would say that both weapons are fairly balanced even if I personally prefer the autocannon.

Revolver: The Bulldog has big burst damage (45 base), ok ammo capacity for a secondary, can have AoE with an upgrade (26 extra damage) and good accuracy. Two shots macteras, one shots most glyphids on headshot (two shots to the body does the trick). It's a great weapon when you need to vent the minigun or when in a panic you need to clear some spitters, since the burst damage is so high it's also good against Praetorians. This weapon is love, really easy to use and effective, it is truly in a perfect state (it would be OP if it was able to oneshot Macteras).

Burst Fire: The BRT7, as its name indicates, shoots 3 bullets everytime you shoot (a burst fire gun). Ok damage (per bullet) meaning that the burst is 39 total damage (base), good ammo capacity, good accuracy. The burst fire gun can reach at a higher damage value than the revolver with some upgrades if all the bullets hit the same target making it harder to use. No buffing required nor nerf.

Comparing secondaries: the revolver is far easier to use and faster with an option to deal AoE damage and no requirements to hit all 3 bullets unlike the burst fire. The revolver has 4 bullets and the burst fire 18 (you can shoot 6 times) before reloading meaning that you will reload less with the burst fire. In exhange of the requirements the burst fire deals more damage which is fair.

In conclusion, the Gunner is the most balanced class in the game. All of his weapons are useful, has many uses and is up to taste. All combinations make sense and are good to choose. If it wasn't for the shield nerf, he would be OP.

[NeloDante]

Driller

The most valuable class in the game, yet the least played. Driller gets better on higher difficulties due to the bigger numbers of bugs that we encounter, thanks to his AoE he shines on Hazard 5 the most.
His drills are hands down the best thing in the game, it'll help everyone, it work from making ramps to shortcuts. Is your team stuck and can't find that last one Dreadnaught or you can't seem to properly follow molly due to the map being strange? No worries, Driller can just go straight as long as the team covers him.

C4: The upgrades are mostly quantity vs quality. If you go for quality, you can one shot praetorians (and allies) or you can go for quantity to get rid of tons of grunts. It doesn't make that much sense to go for quantity if you are using the flamethrower so once again the Driller is poorly balanced having one option far better than the other.

Flamethrower: The best AoE weapon in the game. The upgrade to make bugs explode increases the potential of this weapon by far. Good damage, good ammo capacity but close range. When the game was released the sticky flames were rather useful but nowadays they are not so much and direct damage flamethrower seems to be king thanks to the new upgrade system. This weapon, without upgrades, is by far the worst in the entire game but it changes quite fast the moment that it is upgraded so the new players should not be thinking that this is a weak class, quite the oppossite in fact.
Flamethrower is OP but because of how the difficulty of the game is working right now: increasing the numbers of enemies makes AoE shine bright.

Cryocannon: Almost non existant damage, low ammo capacity, close range, high utility, AoE. The freezing can be rather useful, it gives more room to breathe and increases the damage dealt to a frozen target however the low ammo capacity and that this weapon kinda requires other players to follow it up with even more areas it feels rather weak. His upgrade of spontaneus shattering and negating exploders to blow up are the only things that makes this weapon even worth mentioning. A good option for Salvage Operation and keep the area secure though.
This weapon requires a lot of buffing, it feels like it's trying to imitate the Scout's granade while spending a lot of ammo which in return is asking for the team to spend even more ammo on the targets that are frozen. Either increase how fast bugs freeze or increase by a lot the ammo capacity.

Comparing the two: Flamethrower wins by far, there's not many reasons of why you would go wtih a Cryocannon since the flamethrower does the job but better: it eliminates at the same speed as the cryo freezes, why do you want to CC enemies when they can stop existing. Please if you know more reasons of why, let me know and I will change this.

Pistol: Safe and easy to use. Surprisingly good damage when upgraded against macteras, really good ammo capacity with a nice clip of 12 bullets, great accuracy and decent rate of fire. It's a simple pistol, anyone must be already used to pistols in games and this is pretty much that. It doesn't need buffing nor nerfing.

Charge pistol aka EPC: Rather hard to use and quite strange. It got nerfed heavily recently, for a reason, it was a monster of a weapon when used its charge shot. Now a charge shot instantly overheats the weapon. Great damage albeit hard to properly use, rather low ammo capacity and has AoE when charged.
It can ignore amor and cuts through Preatorians and Rollers like butter if upgraded with its charged shot.

In conclusion, Driller is what you want to have in every team and could be considered strangely, the strongest class in the game because it deals with the biggest threats with his amazing AoE and makes the life of all dwarves easier with his ramps/holes/shortcuts. Driller however can be rather hard to use and requires a lot of pathfinding knowledge, so expect that if you want to play this class, that you will be opening the map constantly to think where you could make a shortcut.

[Syncourt]

I'm guessing you've never seen anybody good at supercharging sentries with the shotgun before, as it got no mention. Understandable being it's not often you see somebody that knows how to do it well, but It's like having your own little death star on the team.

Well i see you did mention it has a combo, but that combo is absolutely amazing when used well.

Also, the breach cutter lines slow down right before it disappears. If you can manage to land it on top of an a large enemy it causes massive damage. Enough to nearly 1 shot a spitballer. I wouldn't say it's an up close weapon either. It may not have long range but it's got more than a shotgun or praetorian. It's not very effective against dreadnoughts though for some reason.

Platforms are also good for plugging holes or expanding defensive area on salvage, which no other class can do.

[Lunacy]

I'm not a fan of the breach cutter due to even if the enemies are in a straight line, many of them are underneath the line and you'll still miss half of them unless you get a good terrain advantage somewhere.

I like how everyone brings something to the table. Scout to light up caverns and zip up to engineer's platforms. Engineer's platforms and its variable uses, and sentries to help defend an area. Gunner's ziplines can make everyone a slow scout within certain areas, I love putting them in all the directions on Point Extraction (aquarq), or leading back up from a big drop so we don't have to mine our way back to the pod; the shield can be downright broken at times, being able to create a safety bubble for practically a whole minute per gunner to run out a timer, or a safety net to revive with, which is also really strong if you die with iron will, shield, revive, and get revived. Driller, while everything can be done without him, he just makes getting around so much easier; why twist around the cavern when you can just make a straight shortcut somewhere; the C4 however I find strange use for, either to cripple a praetorian or delete an overwhelming pack of enemies.

4 of the same class in 1 game I'd say any one of them can be great.

[Syncourt]

Also one other honourable mention for platforms is they can be used very well on some PE maps, allowing players to very quickly jump down/return to the mining platform from a height without taking falling damage.

There's also a good use for controlling enemy pathfinding to bunch enemies up for AoE by using the smelly mod.

[chipper]

I agree with Syncourt, the Engineer's platforms seem to have a multitude of uses. I personally will create "artificial ceilings" around Objectives or in an area where the team is defending. Doing so helps prevent some overhead attacks from the spitters and webbers, and provides a nice choke point for your turrets, or shotgun etc.

All the characters have a "niche" for their movement kit/tool, however in my opinion the Engineer's is the most universal, and provides a lot of potential for; team play, defense, escapes, and exploration.

[NeloDante]

Yes, you can use platforms for many things but those things are rather situational meanwhile the rest have many more uses. I never stated that platforms need buffing or that they are bad, I just mentioned that the others have more uses.

Now I'll proceed to continue with the rest.

Originally posted by Syncourt:

Also, the breach cutter lines slow down right before it disappears. If you can manage to land it on top of an a large enemy it causes massive damage. Enough to nearly 1 shot a spitballer. I wouldn't say it's an up close weapon either. It may not have long range but it's got more than a shotgun or praetorian. It's not very effective against dreadnoughts though for some reason.

Platforms are also good for plugging holes or expanding defensive area on salvage, which no other class can do.

Yes, it slows down near the end and deals more damage because it's in contact for longer. I thought that part was logical and known for everyone but since you bring it up, I'll edit and put it there, thanks for the reminder.

[NeloDante]

Scout updated.

[NeloDante]

Gunner updated. I'm going to need a lot of help for the Driller's secondaries since I don't have that much experience with it, I would appreciate the help so I can finish my work here and proper discussion can be started.

My bad for not having all the thread prepared already.

[Genghis Tron]

A little constructive criticism, please try a different adjective other than a variation of "meh"

[Mushu]

Using the GK2 is a waste of ammo? I'm going to have to disagree there. GK2 can do some serious work, and still snipe long range enemies with a few quick bursts. And yes, I know how to use M1000. The GK2 is an amazing weapon and is perfectly fine at standing toe to toe with the M1000. It's just underappreciated.

Driller's secondaries are interesting. The subata is often considered to be weak by some, amazing by others. I fall firmly into the second camp, with the amount of damage you can do to onfire / weakspots (or both for deletion powers) is insane giving the driller a reliable long range secondary.
The EPC has bad ammo economy compared to the subata, but helps the driller provide even more AoE and is amazing in this regard. Taking the subata helps you cover your weaknesses which is good for solo, while the EPC increasing your strengths which can be good for teamplay.

[Shagohad]

Breach cutter with armor stripping is worth mention due to the utility it brings.

[NeloDante]

Originally posted by Genghis Tron:

A little constructive criticism, please try a different adjective other than a variation of "meh"

I accept that but I'll keep it that way since what I'm trying to sound like is rather friendly. It may help on the reading but I do agree that repeating over and over something is bad.

Originally posted by Mushu:

Using the GK2 is a waste of ammo? I'm going to have to disagree there. GK2 can do some serious work, and still snipe long range enemies with a few quick bursts. And yes, I know how to use M1000. The GK2 is an amazing weapon and is perfectly fine at standing toe to toe with the M1000. It's just underappreciated.

Driller's secondaries are interesting. The subata is often considered to be weak by some, amazing by others. I fall firmly into the second camp, with the amount of damage you can do to onfire / weakspots (or both for deletion powers) is insane giving the driller a reliable long range secondary.
The EPC has bad ammo economy compared to the subata, but helps the driller provide even more AoE and is amazing in this regard. Taking the subata helps you cover your weaknesses which is good for solo, while the EPC increasing your strengths which can be good for teamplay.

Don't get me wrong, what I mean by "waste of ammo" is when you compare the Deepcore with any other main weapon in the game you end up realising that it's better to leave the resupply for someone else since it will be more useful. That doesn't mean it's totally worthless, it's "better than nothing". Yes I did mention that it has good accuracy.
I still do not believe it can stand toe to toe with the sniper rifle however.

Thanks for the hands up. Driller updated.

[Mushu]

Ignoring the GK2 for a bit, the scout will still often resupply for flares, IFG's and secondary ammo. So I find this point about not taking a resupply a bit weak. Not to mention, the GK2 and the M1000 both have ammo issues (to balance with grapple) so I fail to see the difference.

Comparing the GK2 to other weapons is also a bit of a weird thing to do. It's not designed for damage, although has decent damage output IMO. Shooting targets on the fly (and in this regard it gives scout amazing kiting) and picking off key targets. It does this perfectly well.

If you do want to compare damage, I find that the M1000 and GK2 can both pick off warriors and spitters at similar rates. And the GK2 does not have the slow of the M1000 when focusing a shot which can come in handy on hazard 5 with faster enemies and projectiles.

I've played extensively with both, at one point thinking the M1000 was better. Recently I believe both bring something useful to the table, and relatively equal.

Reading through your driller post:
- Cyrocannon has a few issues, but it's a perfectly valid option and can work well in team scenarios. For example, the quicker stopping power of the cryocannon can make it ideal on salvage, by disarming exploders and locking warriors.