Cap fatigue damage to once per round?

[Navin]

It's bad enough running out of cards but then the enemy playing phoney war is just insult to injury. it's not even a case of ending it quickly, I've had next turn lethal multiple times to then lose to forced overdraw fatigue.

So can we cap fatigue damage to once per round because it's extremely tiring to lose to.

Also overdraw decks are the most boring decks in the whole damn game, if you play an overdraw deck then you are the most boring people alive.

[Z0mbie]

Tbh I’ve ran into “overdraw decks” maybe 3 times the whole time I’ve been playing. I thought it was pretty unique the first time I saw it.

It’s not something I expect. But as far as fatigue, the only time it happens is because I do it to myself. Usually just bombing myself with constant draws because my deck has cards that draw on top of draws, so I’m drawing 4-8 cards a turn, but that’s only because I’m also racking up attack and defense and ignoring the card draws.

[Navin]

Originally posted by Z0mbie:

Tbh I’ve ran into “overdraw decks” maybe 3 times the whole time I’ve been playing. I thought it was pretty unique the first time I saw it.

It’s not something I expect. But as far as fatigue, the only time it happens is because I do it to myself. Usually just bombing myself with constant draws because my deck has cards that draw on top of draws, so I’m drawing 4-8 cards a turn, but that’s only because I’m also racking up attack and defense and ignoring the card draws.

I saw three TODAY, it's pretty common for me for some reason

[uncleed]

I feel like I see them half of my games. True I also hate them the most.
One enormous problem is that it synergizes with too many things as it's out of whack as a (the only viable) French mechanic. Rush, retribution, guard, etc.

I fully agree with the "once per round" idea.

One more idea: for Compromise, the opponent gets to decide the effect. That's a real compromise, and it would balance this mechanic.

(Still won't fix main nation issues.)

[puschit]

The entire point of fatigue damage is to ensure games don't last forever. And the fatigue mechanic in itself is already a compromise - in other CCGs, including Magic (the mother of all CCGs) you lose instantly when you have to draw a card but can't because your deck is empty. In other words, every turn you get when your deck is empty is already an extra turn you wouldn't have in other games.

And in any case, if Phoney War is a problem in your eyes, then Phoney War should be changed, not the fatigue mechanic.

[uncleed]

Phoney War is fine because it has an equalized effect, with risk and benefit. There's strategy involved, with neat little limits.
The cards that provide too much control and card burn for their costs are Compromise and H&L.

Multiple fatigue damage is not necessary because at this point the player now has a maximum of 9 cards to play. They are bleeding dry in either case.
Maybe it's fair to scale the damage, but scale and trigger only once per turn.

Otherwise, and we see the effect, entire and multiple decks are built around unavoidable fatigue damage.

[puschit]

On it's own Phoney War is indeed an okay card (similar to Enigma). But for some reasons Kards players seem to be allergic to "mill" cards. Which leads us to this:

Originally posted by uncleed:

Otherwise, and we see the effect, entire and multiple decks are built around unavoidable fatigue damage.

And what's wrong with that? It is, after all, an alternative way to win and therefore an alternative way to play which means more playable decks and thus a more varied metagame. The fatigue damage itself isn't preventable but you can mitigate getting into the situation where fatigue damage applies by not drawing too many cards yourself, applying more pressure faster and generally being less greedy. And if you are playing control you need to identify the key moves and cards and how to avoid/mitigate them - because the fatigue player typically draws a lot of cards himself. I regularly win half of my games against fatgue decks (or "mill decks" as they are universally called across CCGs) with my highlander midrange deck by outlasting him. You just need a lot of patience and knowledge about the matchup. In essence: Mill decks teach you to build better decks. And since they just fold to any kind of aggro decks they'll never dominate the meta.

Also, for reference, we do have:
From this thread about mill decks:

Originally posted by Navin:

I saw three TODAY, it's pretty common for me for some reason

Originally posted by Sarina England:

everyone use rush and commando deck, it is boring either jp or german

Originally posted by Valaskjalf1414:

I came back after a few months off from the toxic nonsense in the game, came back after an apparent nerf to Retribution/Outrage, only to see the same sh*t still happening.

I played 11 games today and out of those 8 of them were these obnoxious "make your own adventure" decks

Originally posted by FRANKDREBIN:

98% of the players in Officer Clubs goes with US or UK.
You can´t see any russian or japanese decks at the higher levels.

All posted within the same week :)
Apparently a lot of decks are playable and some decks are more prominent on certain parts of the ladder, which shouldn’t be surprising of course but somehow it does surprise them? Or at least they can’t connect the dots and conclude that if a certain deck is prominent in lower ranks it could possibly mean that the deck isn’t actually as great? But instead of figuring out how to beat it they complain about that deck … and that’s the thing, if you truly run into the same deck 8 out 11 times as claimed here, then that might be boring of course but it also means you can tweak your deck to beat this specific deck and thus leave that part of the ladder!

Both of my ladder decks are vulnerable against anything US that bases on ramp. I can hold my own for quite a while and games last quite long but in then end they always out-value me. Even now that I run Front Formation. The thing is: These decks just aren’t frequent enough to justify adding more hate against these decks because then I’ll underperform against the other decks. But since my winrates against aggro, mill decks, SKD and self-damage decks are positive and most other matchups okay-ish, I just accept that there is this one archetype out there that I am powerless. Does it feel good? Of course not. but that’s life in a pvp game. I comfort myself in the knowledge that these decks are equally powerless against aggrodecks, especially those that finish off with Blitzkrieg while the US deck is still ramping.

[uncleed]

They provide too much control in any context, and leverage a mechanic the opponent cannot defend against. (And frankly, "play this deck" or "have this card" defeats the argument that it is balanced.)

And this is my biggest gripe, that it works stand-alone with too many deck combinations, abusing the same gimmick.

You can build against the polar opposite, a discard deck. You cannot really build against an exhaust deck. Only luck beats it. I beat them here and there, it's not just you. ;)

[sushi_komplett]

If you want to beat a mill deck, you want

1) Blitz units which can strike at least once before they get pinned or shuffled back into your deck
2) Removal cards to get rid of the few powerful attack units or guards which mill decks like to use
3) HQ healing in order to survive longer when your deck runs dry
4) Cards with deployment effects like "Destroy enemy unit", "Add own unit", "Fight enemy unit", "Deal damage to target" or "Give defense to own HQ". When they get shuffled back into your deck, you may play them a second time.
5) Countermeasures that protect your units against cards like "Honor and Glory"
(forgot that one, see puschit's post below)
6) Cards that punish order spam and/or that prevent the enemy HQ from healing (forgot that one as well; for a list of cards, see the post below)

Play a mill deck yourself to see how it feels like. You will notice that there are certain matchups in which you cannot keep up with the pressure applied to you.

[puschit]

Ugh, how's that? You can build against that as well as you can build against discard. Mill decks are order-heavy, so anything anti-order like Blackwatch, 60th Cavalry Regiment or Shibata works great. They draw lots of cards, so cards like 125th Rifles or KV-1 are gold but also 4th Guards Rifles. They run key removal cards like Honor and Loyalty, so a well timed counterspell on one of your key units (see above) like Interception ruins their plans. They rely on lifegain, so stuff like 51st Recon or Kagoshima Regiment cokk-block them. Burst damage is good. Just making your deck faster and more efficient works 200% against mill decks because you not only apply more pressure, you also assure you will overdraw less or even not at all.

I mean, come on, if you understand how to work against discard you should also know how to deal with mill. In both cases you need to keep tempo, in both cases you need to focus on your key units/cards.
Mill decks just do a different kind of damage, imagine each card in your deck equally one life, only difference being that you start with more cards than life but on the other hand get one "damage" each turn no matter what (because you draw your regular card each turn). And once the card pool is empty you still haven't lost and you'll get regular damage now, albeit Fibonacci style. All of that means if you have your own lifegain and means to preserve cards you might actually outlast the mill player (who usually also draws heavily with Phoney War and so on). My games against mill decks are actually those where it matters most how you play it, when to play what, these games are actually the most exciting and by no means down to luck. The matchup against discard involves more luck (namely which card they discard, since that's random, holding on a card could both mean victory or loss - whereas against mill you can slowly assemble a killer hand and wait for your turn to strike).

[romy]

Originally posted by sushi_komplett:

If you want to beat a mill deck, you want

1) Blitz units which can strike at least once before they get pinned or shuffled back into your deck
2) Removal cards to get rid of the few powerful attack units or guards which mill decks like to use
3) HQ healing in order to survive longer when your deck runs dry
4) Cards with deployment effects like "Destroy enemy unit", "Add own unit", "Fight enemy unit", "Deal damage to target" or "Give defense to own HQ". When they get shuffled back into your deck, you may play them a second time.

Play a mill deck yourself to see how it feels like. You will notice that there are certain matchups in which you cannot keep up with the pressure applied to you.

topic answer right there