Discard decks are ruining the game

[Seigmoraig]

The German discard cards are way too oppressive in this game. The combination of discard, skipping draw, and return to hand mechanics are too much all together and they need to be fundamentally changed if they are to be a healthy part of this game.

All of these concepts have been thoroughly explored in MTG and other CCGs and have been deemed unfun and are no longer a part of standard play. Land Destruction isn't fun, random discard isn't fun, skipping draw steps is even worse.

Presently in Kards discard decks end up playing solitaire while the opposing player languishes alone in Kards prison because he is completely and totally starved of resources.
The only to fix this would be to first change ALL discard cards from random to player chosen. (This includes Bletchley Park because seriously as it is right now it might as well just read "you win" and save everyone some time. The player should get to choose in what order the cards go on top of the deck). Cards like Wolfpack, U-375 and Annihilation should let the player choose what they discard.
Cards that remove draw steps shouldn't exist at all or should be symmetrical. In addition, cards like U-16 which is already a player chosen discard should come into effect before the draw step so that is isn't a pseudo draw skip.

[puschit]

rd_bigdog eredeti hozzászólása:

MTG also very little ways to force players to skip their draw step. only effects like this are self inflicted (Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain etc)

Check out the following cards: Fatigue, Fatespinner, Notion Thief, Possessed Portal, Zur's Weirding, Maralen the Mornsong.
Aside from that, MtG has hundreds of very, very unfun cards that are much more evil than skipping a single draw or discard a single random card. I really, really wouldn't cite MtG as a reference here.

Kard's resource denial cards are comparebly tame. Kards has no enchantments and therefore no permanent way to mess with the opponent like Possessed Portal does. In Kards you also get one credit slot for free each turn, so the "land destruction" is offset automatically. In every instance, these cards only grant you temporal benefits in Kards. Thus, the associated cards are tempo decks, not complete control decks and definately no soft/hard lock decks like Staxx in MtG. And while it is annoying to play against these tempo decks, they are far from invinceable, limited to a single faction and overall a welcome addition to the game.
Because, let's face it, if you wanted a very simple game where all these elements don't exist, then we could play Hearthstone.

Maybe you should play such a german deck yourself to see the limitations and difficult decisions you have to make. This might even come with insight how to beat them. The heavy hitters are very expensive, the discard can hit stuff that was useless or cards you really don't want to discard like Betty or Supply Chains. And neither credit slot destruction nor discard nor card draw denial changes anything about the board situation which means you are very vulnerable to weenie hoards and blitz units or anything that managed to slip past your orders. Having a deck full of pro-active resource denial also leaves you with not much space for units of your own whic his a problem since, as established above, you need to have something in play in order to take advantage of the tempo youi gain.

All of this combined means resource denial is annoying but risky and needs much skill (and luck in case of some discard) to perform well.
Of course it's always a question of relation, if the associated cards become way too powerful and resource denial way too easy, then all of this becomes moot. But right now germany resource denial decks are just one of many viable options and simply don't perform well against many popular deck styles. If you have problems beating them you might be playing exclusively a style that is susceptible to resource denial. Which usually means your deck is too greedy.

[puschit]

That's a bad comparison since Leopold needs 10 credits, Blechtly Park a total of 30 !
Personally I also think the US research card is way better than the british one. It's rare to escape Blechtly, sure, but the same is true for 2 Manhattan Projects. The US reasearch, however, has the better 3 credit version, which is much more important than the ultimate (every game will last 3 rounds but many don't last 12), especially since mana ramp+Fog fits the US game plan perfectly.

[NyanNyan]

As a toxic Manhattan Project player, I dont think Bletchley Park is something should be nerf.
It is true that Bletchley Park almost mean "you are lose", but you have to draw the Royal Research first, which dont always happen.
Just as US Military Research, imagine the frustration that you only got five card left but your Royal Research/US Military Research is still in your deck.

Also, although I do agree that discard decks should be nerf, I dont think "change ALL discard cards from random to player chosen" will be a good idea. It will be a shame to remove RNG from a VIRTUAL card game.
I would like to see more counter card against discard decks, rather than nerfing those cards.

[General E. Drunk]

puschit eredeti hozzászólása:

Check out the following cards: Fatigue, Fatespinner, Notion Thief, Possessed Portal, Zur's Weirding, Maralen the Mornsong.
Aside from that, MtG has hundreds of very, very unfun cards that are much more evil than skipping a single draw or discard a single random card. I really, really wouldn't cite MtG as a reference here.

Kard's resource denial cards are comparebly tame. Kards has no enchantments and therefore no permanent way to mess with the opponent like Possessed Portal does. In Kards you also get one credit slot for free each turn, so the "land destruction" is offset automatically. In every instance, these cards only grant you temporal benefits in Kards. Thus, the associated cards are tempo decks, not complete control decks and definately no soft/hard lock decks like Staxx in MtG. And while it is annoying to play against these tempo decks, they are far from invinceable, limited to a single faction and overall a welcome addition to the game.
Because, let's face it, if you wanted a very simple game where all these elements don't exist, then we could play Hearthstone.

Maybe you should play such a german deck yourself to see the limitations and difficult decisions you have to make. This might even come with insight how to beat them. The heavy hitters are very expensive, the discard can hit stuff that was useless or cards you really don't want to discard like Betty or Supply Chains. And neither credit slot destruction nor discard nor card draw denial changes anything about the board situation which means you are very vulnerable to weenie hoards and blitz units or anything that managed to slip past your orders. Having a deck full of pro-active resource denial also leaves you with not much space for units of your own whic his a problem since, as established above, you need to have something in play in order to take advantage of the tempo youi gain.

All of this combined means resource denial is annoying but risky and needs much skill (and luck in case of some discard) to perform well.
Of course it's always a question of relation, if the associated cards become way too powerful and resource denial way too easy, then all of this becomes moot. But right now germany resource denial decks are just one of many viable options and simply don't perform well against many popular deck styles. If you have problems beating them you might be playing exclusively a style that is susceptible to resource denial. Which usually means your deck is too greedy.

[Seigmoraig]

puschit eredeti hozzászólása:

rd_bigdog eredeti hozzászólása:

MTG also very little ways to force players to skip their draw step. only effects like this are self inflicted (Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain etc)

Check out the following cards: Fatigue, Fatespinner, Notion Thief, Possessed Portal, Zur's Weirding, Maralen the Mornsong.
Aside from that, MtG has hundreds of very, very unfun cards that are much more evil than skipping a single draw or discard a single random card. I really, really wouldn't cite MtG as a reference here.

The fact that you needed to dredge out some 20 year old cards to prove your point kind of proves my point that MTG has shied away from playing stax decks. Citing MTG in these discussions is pertinent precisely because these cards exist, it shows that they experimented in that design space and moved on because nobody liked it.
Of course if you look hard enough in a game with 10k+ cards printed you can prove anything you want. Notice how I said that they are no longer a part of "Standard" play. WotC has a habit of nerfing decks that are too oppressive (Caw-Blade, Lantern etc) because they know that: 1) people hate playing against those decks and 2) people hate watching game play featuring those decks.
The only card you listed there that sees any kind of play is Notion Thief. Notion Thief also reinforces my point that forcing players to skip draw steps is a bad game philosophy considering how it specifically states that it cannot skip the first card you draw each turn.

[Blank]

I don't mind discard as a concept but there needs to be more cards that counter it that aren't completely useless against other decks. Also cards that deny draw need to be reworked. At least with discard I can play around it with supply chain/m4a1 but you can't do anything about draw denial. Panther A is way too good and should have been nerfed yesterday.

[Dallas]

I like the changes they did to the resistance deck. Discard is and has been in TCG's forever and everyone says the same thing. Just because you make a big bad deck doesn't mean that someone can't use discard as a viable option to win. I agree they need more counters just for the sake of having some fun! Currently it's just the shermans in the USA deck. I used to love black discard

[athensmarc]

Discard suxxxxxxxx. I can only imagine how lame German discard vs German discard would be. LOTS of it in the higher tiers. There not unbeatable but seems to have a distinct advantage regardless of strategy. German countermeasure decks can be overcome with some thought and familiarity with the cards themselves. Choose a card to discard + discard a random card + put a card back in your hand AND discard random card + kill a card and discard a random card, etc... jumping the shark, I say...

Nothing else I hate to see quite as bad atm.

[Hohenheim Did Nothing Wrong]

why the developer only balance the game based on draft?? Ranked game is not important to them?

This card game is really getting weird.

[binhpac]

Discard is only bad for beginners, because they dont have the cards to counter it. Nobody on higher tiers plays it, because its a losing deck in the current meta.
There are M4A1 Tanks in all popular decks.

Beginners though have a hard time against any deck of control. You take out discard, they will complain about other control decks, because control decks beat beginner decks with rare control cards.

The only thing you can do is play aggro decks as beginner and hope people dont play control or beat them by variance.

[athensmarc]

What are higher tiers? I run into German discard frequently at tiers 8-10. I don't consider myself a beginner, but I "beginner" and "higher" are relative. I haven't found any decks quite as dominant.

Furthermore, I'd be interested, since there so easy for you to beat, how? From your reply you can only play USA or USA allied and having 2x "play this tank if they make you discard" determines the fight? They leave little to no cards to target/attack, nearly everything you play gets a) takes 3 damage, b) is killed instantly or c) is put back into your hand unless you can play 2+ units a turn which only puts you more at a disadvantage of running out of cards, which ultimately is German discards deathblow...

[binhpac]

Another counter to discard is carddraw. Just be patient, draw cards, bait out their removals. All relevant cards in discard are specials or elite. They only have 1 or 2 of.

I dont even get, why you refuse to use the easiest solutions the games give you. Yes, play US as ally nation and farm discards all day if you meet them on ladder so often. It's like im telling you paper beats stone, but you say i dont want to use paper, what should i do?

Play discard for yourself and then you will realize the weaknesses this deck has and why people dont play it on Rank5-1.

Discard is only part of the meta on ladder, because it plays against players, who dont know how to deal with or dont have the collection to deal with it.

If discard would be so powerful, it would be the most popular deck. But it isnt.

I even question your observation that all you see is discard. People complain here much more about Jaggro, that it is much more popular beside the probably most popular decks of soviet artillery and counteroffensive US-Soviet decks atm.

Look at the OCC Championships, where the best players from ladder compete, and nobody plays discard.

[General E. Drunk]

binhpac eredeti hozzászólása:

Play discard for yourself and then you will realize the weaknesses this deck has

I couldn't agree more!

The best way to learn how to beat a deck type is to play it yourself. Then you will know what to expect and what strategy works best when facing a similar deck in the future.

That said, discard is an inherently annoying architype to play against. However when you know the ins-and-outs of it, it will become a bit more bearable. Same goes for resistance.

[Blank]

I don't think it's fair to point to ladder when those players have unlocked almost all of the cards in the game. It's a lot easier to beat discard when you have a deck packed full of elites. For everyone else who hasn't dumped hundreds of dollars into officer packs or played for thousands of hours there aren't any good cheap answers to it. M4A1 is not an auto win by any means.

[Milkgoblin]

็ eredeti hozzászólása:

I don't think it's fair to point to ladder when those players have unlocked almost all of the cards in the game. It's a lot easier to beat discard when you have a deck packed full of elites. For everyone else who hasn't dumped hundreds of dollars into officer packs or played for thousands of hours there aren't any good cheap answers to it. M4A1 is not an auto win by any means.

so which elites are in your opinion good to beat discard with? the elite-argument get's thrown around way too easily to take it serious without naming specific cards