Decoys buggy a little?

[icecold951]

I am noticing that Russian noisemakers seem to do an amazing job at distracting torps, while mine seem nearly useless. Anyone else seeing this?

[The Inept European]

They seem to have identical behaviour to me for either side. Maybe you are dropping them at the wrong time?

[strykerpsg]

Originally posted by The Inept European:

They seem to have identical behaviour to me for either side. Maybe you are dropping them at the wrong time?

Agreed, timing and changing your course and/or depth make a huge difference in their effects.

[Wraith_Magus]

You can't drop them too far away, and also, keep in mind they only work if the torpedo is reasonably behind you (that is to say, if the noisemaker's behind you, the torpedo still sees you, first), so you still want to be going flank directly away from the torpedo, and preferably keep it on your depth, as well, until you drop the noisemaker and climb or dive while turning the opposite direction of its swim-around.

[Sharpe_95]

I read this thinking it was a post about US sub noisemakers being too good, ready to +1 it.

I dont think Russian noise makers are OP at all, on the other hand I have noticed that when I dump a noise maker it sometimes causes the red torp to 'bounce' (immediately steer almost perpendicular) to my course, which i think may be wrong?

If you are having issues with your torps try aiming them at a bigger 'cut' of the target. Ie, along the sides not at the front or back.

[Nefaro]

Biggest difference is dropping the decoy between yourself and the incoming torpedo.

If you're equidistant, it can be a crap shoot as to whether the noisemaker works. If you're heading toward the fish, and drop one, then it's likely to keep homing on your sub since it's closer.

Not sure if this has been taken into account by everyone. There is a wide range of knowledge regarding modern submarine warfare on these boards. So I apologize if the OP was already taking this into consideration.

[The Inept European]

There's next to nothing on using noise makers in the tutorial missions or manual. I imagine a lot of new players watch Jive Turkey. I sort of learned by trial and error but could well be doing it badly.

A written tutorial would be a great help to the community.

[hoffmannjames]

Russian noisemakers are pretty ineffective because of how good the Mk48 is. They work at distracting the MK48 but only for a brief moment before it homes in again.

Noisemakers always drop behind you. So since you need to get the noisemaker in between you and the enemy torp to get it to work, you should move away from the enemy torpedo before dropping the noisemaker in order to place it in between you and the enemy torp. Also keep in mind that noisemakers will only temporarily blind the enemy torp which are programmed to either fly through the noisemaker or go around it. Torpedoes are faster and more maneuverable than your sub so eventually the torp will get past the noisemaker and see you again. So just dropping a noisemaker and running away or turning probably won't work. The key is to get the torpedo away from you. The MOSS is great at this because it can lure the enemy torp away. Also, try waiting to the last second to drop the noisemaker to give the torp the least amount of time to see you again. If you drop the noisemaker too soon, you are giving the enemy torp plenty of space to avoid the noisemaker and find you again. The only time that dropping a noisemaker early works is if you can also launch a MOSS in the right direction to lure the torp away long before it gets close to you.

[Wraith_Magus]

OK, so writing this for someone who doesn't know anything...

Noisemakers are basically bubble-blowing machines. The bubbles will confuse active homing torpedoes because they block the active sonar, which hides you if you are behind the bubbles, while they confuse passive sonar if it's between you and the torpedo because it's something that makes noise, and passive torpedoes home on noise. Active torpedoes are more easily fooled with noisemakers than passive ones, so if you have trouble with noisemakers defeating your torpedoes, you may want to switch to passive ones. I frequently stick with passive torpedoes just because I frequently want to put torpedoes in the baffles of my targets, and they won't hear it coming until it's very close if it isn't loudly pinging away.

First rule of torpedo-dodging club is you keep your propeller facing the torpedo.

Second rule of torpedo-dodging club is YOU KEEP YOUR PROPELLER FACING THE TORPEDO!

A sub facing its torpedo is a dead sub. You cannot outmaneuver the torpedo, so if you're running towards it, you're screwed.

Also, the key to staying alive is moving fast. If you're making 28 knots and the torpedo only goes 35 knots (like a SET-65), then the battle is basically going at only 7 knots. If you're only doing 5 knots, then the battle is going at 30 knots. You want as much time as possible to bring your giant tubs around. If someone fires on you, you make flank. Don't worry about giving your position away, the enemy already knows you're there if they've fired on you.

To actually make the noisemaker anything more than a temporary reprieve, you want to get either above or below the search band of a torpedo.

To do this you want the enemy torpedo on your depth. This will happen naturally so long as you're making flank away from the enemy torpedo, so don't worry too much about this.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1056773600

Torpedoes can only "see" somewhere between 400 and 600 feet above or below them. What you want to do is use a noisemaker to confuse the torpedo and force it to swim out to the side to clear the effective area of the noisemaker, at which point you either go full dive or climb to put yourself outside that search depth band by the time it's ready to start looking for you, again. (In the image above, I was deep, evaded shallow, was picked up again because they were passive and I was cavitating, and so dropped another noisemaker and dove to 1000 feet.)

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1086639004

You should also try turning away from the direction the torpedo tries to turn to clear your noisemaker. This is because the torpedo will try circling around your noisemaker to see if it reacquires you. Turning away from the torpedo gives you a few more seconds of diving or climbing to get out of that search depth band. (Note that in the picture above, I'm full rise on the planes and turning hard port with a torpedo deep and to my starboard side.)

Also note that in shallow water, this is invalid advice. All you can do is buy time until you run the torpedo out of battery (or can find a way to make something else eat the torpedo for you).

In anything faster than a Sturgeon, you can make knuckles. Knuckles form when you're going at high speed and slam full rudder one direction or the other. In a Sturgeon, you need to actually go full rudder one direction, then full rudder the other direction to swing around fast enough to actually form a knuckle... and of course, you need to be going flank speed to make a knuckle.

Knuckles are bubbles created by making a void in the water when you push your ship sideways with drastic rudder motion at high speed which then form into a small whirlpool. This functions like a very short-lived noisemaker that you can create for free. (You're limited to 20 noisemakers, but have infinite capacity for knuckles.)

If you're pursued by a torpedo in shallow water, the best course of action is to make flank away from the torpedo, and knuckle every time the torpedo comes close, forcing it into going around your knuckle, and buying you a little more distance and time to set up the next knuckle. Just keep at it until the torpedo runs out of battery.

An interesting note is that if you form a knuckle close enough, then an active torpedo can become so confused by the knuckle that it thinks it's hitting a ship when it hits the knuckle, and it will detonate right there. That said, I don't think this happens reliably enough to risk letting torpedoes get close enough to try, since if it fails, you risk a torpedo swimming right through your knuckle and hitting you.

[The Inept European]

Thanks Wraith_Magus great post!

You should post that as a Guide.

[Wraith_Magus]

Originally posted by The Inept European:

Thanks Wraith_Magus great post!

You should post that as a Guide.

I wouldn't mind doing that, but Brygun already has one that basically covers what I'd say in mine, anyway:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=974409462

I could still do one if you think it's better to have two, but I think Brygun's is fine, and if nobody's searching his, why would they search for mine?

I was actually thinking of doing a "How to '68" guide, though, since I keep seeing questions about that...

[icecold951]

Originally posted by Wraith_Magus:

OK, so writing this for someone who doesn't know anything...

Noisemakers are basically bubble-blowing machines. The bubbles will confuse active homing torpedoes because they block the active sonar, which hides you if you are behind the bubbles, while they confuse passive sonar if it's between you and the torpedo because it's something that makes noise, and passive torpedoes home on noise. Active torpedoes are more easily fooled with noisemakers than passive ones, so if you have trouble with noisemakers defeating your torpedoes, you may want to switch to passive ones. I frequently stick with passive torpedoes just because I frequently want to put torpedoes in the baffles of my targets, and they won't hear it coming until it's very close if it isn't loudly pinging away.

First rule of torpedo-dodging club is you keep your propeller facing the torpedo.

Second rule of torpedo-dodging club is YOU KEEP YOUR PROPELLER FACING THE TORPEDO!

A sub facing its torpedo is a dead sub. You cannot outmaneuver the torpedo, so if you're running towards it, you're screwed.

Also, the key to staying alive is moving fast. If you're making 28 knots and the torpedo only goes 35 knots (like a SET-65), then the battle is basically going at only 7 knots. If you're only doing 5 knots, then the battle is going at 30 knots. You want as much time as possible to bring your giant tubs around. If someone fires on you, you make flank. Don't worry about giving your position away, the enemy already knows you're there if they've fired on you.

To actually make the noisemaker anything more than a temporary reprieve, you want to get either above or below the search band of a torpedo.

To do this you want the enemy torpedo on your depth. This will happen naturally so long as you're making flank away from the enemy torpedo, so don't worry too much about this.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1056773600

Torpedoes can only "see" somewhere between 400 and 600 feet above or below them. What you want to do is use a noisemaker to confuse the torpedo and force it to swim out to the side to clear the effective area of the noisemaker, at which point you either go full dive or climb to put yourself outside that search depth band by the time it's ready to start looking for you, again. (In the image above, I was deep, evaded shallow, was picked up again because they were passive and I was cavitating, and so dropped another noisemaker and dove to 1000 feet.)

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1086639004

You should also try turning away from the direction the torpedo tries to turn to clear your noisemaker. This is because the torpedo will try circling around your noisemaker to see if it reacquires you. Turning away from the torpedo gives you a few more seconds of diving or climbing to get out of that search depth band. (Note that in the picture above, I'm full rise on the planes and turning hard port with a torpedo deep and to my starboard side.)

Also note that in shallow water, this is invalid advice. All you can do is buy time until you run the torpedo out of battery (or can find a way to make something else eat the torpedo for you).

In anything faster than a Sturgeon, you can make knuckles. Knuckles form when you're going at high speed and slam full rudder one direction or the other. In a Sturgeon, you need to actually go full rudder one direction, then full rudder the other direction to swing around fast enough to actually form a knuckle... and of course, you need to be going flank speed to make a knuckle.

Knuckles are bubbles created by making a void in the water when you push your ship sideways with drastic rudder motion at high speed which then form into a small whirlpool. This functions like a very short-lived noisemaker that you can create for free. (You're limited to 20 noisemakers, but have infinite capacity for knuckles.)

If you're pursued by a torpedo in shallow water, the best course of action is to make flank away from the torpedo, and knuckle every time the torpedo comes close, forcing it into going around your knuckle, and buying you a little more distance and time to set up the next knuckle. Just keep at it until the torpedo runs out of battery.

An interesting note is that if you form a knuckle close enough, then an active torpedo can become so confused by the knuckle that it thinks it's hitting a ship when it hits the knuckle, and it will detonate right there. That said, I don't think this happens reliably enough to risk letting torpedoes get close enough to try, since if it fails, you risk a torpedo swimming right through your knuckle and hitting you.

FYI, before you get to critical, the strategy tends to change with the sub game. Back in 688, I'd run straight at the torp ala Red October, blow hard, and it would loose lock. In others, the propeller had no relation to decoy or noismakers. They even used different devices for both decoy and noisemaker.

[Wraith_Magus]

Originally posted by icecold951:

FYI, before you get to critical, the strategy tends to change with the sub game. Back in 688, I'd run straight at the torp ala Red October, blow hard, and it would loose lock. In others, the propeller had no relation to decoy or noismakers. They even used different devices for both decoy and noisemaker.

It's entirely possible to just straight out-climb a torpedo, but that depends on the characterstics of your sub and the torpedo in question. A USET-80 or Mk 48 (especially an ADCAP if you use the 2004 mod) will follow you pretty well, and a Sturgeon is too slow to pull that off. You need the extra time that a noisemaker gives you to get an extra leg up on diving or climbing.

A Los Angeles is more nimble, and can outclimb most torpedoes, plus knuckle reliably, so torpedo evasion is much easier.

If giving out general advice, especially for someone new, I wanted to keep it generally applicable, and also have the largest margin of error, which throwing down a noisemaker will give you.

That said, I've definitely had some situations where I couldn't get around in time, and just kissed ground trying desperately to pull up in time before "lawndarting" to get under a torpedo coming from close by the side or bow-on:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1086733658