Please do something about the infinite fuel helicopters

[BothKindsOfGaming]

So I got engaged on by two destroyers. I sank them both. No other enemy ships in area. I took damage and i have fixed it. The helicopter on station is out of ordinance to use on me. I can't exit mission though because despite being below a strong layer/strong duct and running ultra quiet at 5 kt this thing keeps following me around. i have been trying to exit mission for AN HOUR.

[The Inept European]

Originally posted by BloodCat:

Originally posted by The Inept European:

Saying "Cold Waters would be better if they nerfed the pesky ASW aircraft" is like saying "this WW1 infantry assault game would be better if they nerfed the pesky machineguns" or "this WW1 infantry defence game would be better if they nerfed the pesky massed artillery, mustard gas, and tanks".

I agree for the most part, except if the ship the helo took off from is sunk. In that case the air crew has more pressing matters than sub hunting -- like calculating how much they'll have to swim to the shore after the fuel runs out.

Don't agree. I'm repeating myself from other posts but 1. they are usually in friendly waters and more importantly 2. they are now really peeved that you killed all their friends and they are the only chance those friends have to be avenged 3. they are risking a million ruble helo against a billion dollar sub so those odds are heavily in their favour 4. If they fly down to vapours, let alone bingo fuel, prosecuting a NATO sub they will get a medal for determination 5. They will stay locked to you as long as they can even without weapons so that they can hand off your contact data to any other Soviet platform - that is their day job, IRL half of them don't even carry weapons, they just spot for other platforms. Admittedly in this game there is no help coming because (as yet) that is not simulated in the game. However it's totally realistic Soviet behaviour and it's also totally realistic that you can't leave combat until you break their lock, because if you tried that IRL there would be a pack of Bears paying you a visit before you got 50 nm away.

So like IRL you have to break the lock to get away. Suck it up, people! :-)

[Azrael]

For now, as long as they don't implement incoming enemy reinforcement ships, helicopters should fly away as soon as they've used up their torpedoes and all enemy ships are sunk, because it doesn't make sense for them to stay there and scout for you, if there is no ship, that could shoot you.

In that case, real helicoptercrews would probably try to get to land, living to fight on another day.


I had exactly the same situation and I also got damage by a waterbomb early in the mission.

So I had to go as high as possible to get the water out but then, the chopper heard me.

After 10 Minutes or so I could figure out the exact settings for planes, ballast and speed to counterbalance the sinking caused by the water in the boat just below the thermal layer and could escape the chopper that way.

[Muzzleflash]

In terms of game play, since you no reinforcements are incoming, helos without munition should fly home. Having the player evade a helicopter all day which have no means of destroying you is just bad gameplay - waste of gaming hours. But if they do add reinforcements or something then they might could stay longer, perhaps even rearm and reload aboard a compatible vessel..

I would expect a armed helicopter which loses its mothership to make a quick estimate on their fuel capacity. Fully fueled they can be at sea for roughly 4 hours, depending on distance to friendly land, or otherwise just any land, they might need an hour or more to reach it leaving roughly at most 3 hours of real life time hunting. But helicopters will not always have full fuel load, or be farther at sea, so something between ½ to 3 hours of real life time hunting would be realistic. This could maybe be scaled inverse by the distance factor used to adjust the arcadeness/realism factor in the settings.

However, I disagree that they would heroically fight to the bitter end.

[The Inept European]

Any consideration of "realism" has to consider that an unarmed or out of ammo aircraft in contact with an evading NATO sub would be calling in other Soviet assets to join the attack. I absolutely believe that in wartime maintaining that active contact - while other assets are en route - would be a priority higher than the survival of the aircraft, certainly a cheap aircraft like a helo or MAIL. I am sure that such an aircraft would be ordered by its chain of command to stay on station and prosecute the contact regardless of fuel status as long as there was any chance of other armed assets arriving in time to engage the contact.

In the game we get a free pass because there are no actual off-map assets inbound. As a nod to realism we are forced to break contact with the ASW aircraft before we can freely disengage. We don't get to drive back to Holy Loch with a helicopter over our head.

Yes in the game it is boring and "pointless" because no off-map assets are coming. My preferred fix is that there ARE additional off-map assets on their way once a NATO sub contact is being active prosecuted. That restores the realistic incentive to break contact with on-map Soviet assets and get the heck out of there before reinforcements show up.

[cxiv]

Originally posted by IVIalicious:

Originally posted by razoleg:

Choppers are supposed to hang for ages, this is how it is in real life.

Why do you think the US subs with all their "NUMBAH UAN" fleet can't penetrate the Russian defences?

NATO would have had air superiority over the Soviets you know ...

+1

[r4y30n]

Is it believable that they could get there in such a short amount of time, though? It'd be more believable to see an ASW group headed your way on the strategic map after you end the encounter but that belies the fact that you evaded the helo to get there.

[The Inept European]

Off-map aircraft could reach you while still on the tactical map if on-map assets (ships subs or air) hold you on-map for an hour or few.

Agreed any off-map ships or subs would only realistically come after you on the strategic map.

[RED]

Originally posted by r4y30n:

Is it believable that they could get there in such a short amount of time, though? It'd be more believable to see an ASW group headed your way on the strategic map after you end the encounter but that belies the fact that you evaded the helo to get there.

Well, that depends where "there" is and how far the nearest patrolling aircraft is. Max speed of Tu-142 is above 900 km/h. It could be % chance depending on your distance from the nearest Soviet location or plane asset on strategic map.

[Mack]

Originally posted by The Inept European:

Originally posted by mack:

With no other ships and no ordnance on the helo just go flank as deep as you can and just run.

Does this actually work for you? I'd be surprised if you can outrun a 100+ kt helo in a 30kt sub while making maximum constant noise.

The AI isn't perfect.

I've been surfaced to stop flooding, with an unarmed helo as the only thing left, and have watched the helo keep doing it's thing with the dipping sonar, going in the wrong direction to me.

If it's got no weapons, then you might as well just run deep and go flank on time compression and you stand a good chance of getting away.

[Justicier10-7]

Agreed that aircraft are annoying little pests. I don't think they should be nerfed for the reasons that have already been covered, if anything, they aren't deadly enough. Even though they can be deadly now... in terms of payload, most of the aircraft in the game actually need to be buffed... big time.

Now, with that said, I agree that fuel should be a consideration. But more specifically, I think fuel level and... perhaps more importantly... distance to nearest refuel point should be taken into account by the AI pilot.

A good example of why this is important would be this scenario:

Submarine near the coast of Greenland running at flank speed. Sub comes into contact with a tender group. Detected by a Moskva helicopter carrier who starts putting ASW helicopters in the air. Sub fires upon and sinks the Moskva, and the two other ships in the group, but not before three KA-25 are launched. The KA-25s have *barely* enough fuel to rendezvous with a Soviet ASW group that is several hundred kilometers away.

What would those pilots do? Would they go dipping sonar for an enemy sub for hours while their chances of being able to land safely dwindle with every minute they stay in the air? Would they drop every weapon they had available on their best guess of the sub's position before turning tail and running for their rendezvous point? Or would they simply bug out immediately given that every minute spent chasing a phantom could mean the death of them?

If it were me flying one of those choppers, I'd be furious that some "yankee buckaroo" just killed a bunch of my friends... I would search for, and launch every weapon I had at my target if I could get even a remotely decent fix on its position. Vengeance would be at the forefront of my mind. However, after launching weapons, I get the feeling that I would realize that I was responsible for the chopper and the lives of the crew onboard. Considering that, I think my mindset would shift to living to fight another day... and therefore make best possible speed for the friendly ASW group.

But that's just me, who knows what a full-blooded Soviet pilot would do in those circumstances.

[Azanimefan]

you're overestimating the helo's ability to hear you.

If you're under the layer, run at standard or full (whatever won't cavitate). unless they get really lucky and randomly drop their dipper on you, you'll probably be way outside their hearing range pretty quickly.

Sometimes you're just boning yourself by playing slow and quiet. That helo picked you up in that area, you should be clearing the area, not loitering around in "ultra silent". It's the same when the game spawns you on top of a couple of ASW ships in an encounter. The moment they ping you you better be high tailing it out of there. not waiting around for the ASW Rockets in "ultra quiet". it's too late. As quiet as your sub is, once a russian closes within 5k or so, they'll hear you (enough to ping in your general direction anyway) unless you have the help of a good thermal layer; no matter how quiet you are being.

[Wraith_Magus]

Originally posted by The Inept European:

Originally posted by mack:

With no other ships and no ordnance on the helo just go flank as deep as you can and just run.

Does this actually work for you? I'd be surprised if you can outrun a 100+ kt helo in a 30kt sub while making maximum constant noise.

Yes, because you don't have to outrun the helo, you just have to get away from its dipping sonar.

If you make noise cavitating shallow, they'll hear you just fine and fire their two torpedoes at you (but you can easily evade them if you're already making flank away from the helo...), and then what? You're moving. The helo has to reposition to hear you again. But it has a dipping sonar in the water it can't move when in the water without ripping that sonar off and making the helo useless, and it takes just as long to reel it back in as it did to dip it to start with. Sure, it'll get a good read on you the first time, and reposition based upon your bearing and speed, but then, it has to have already reeled in the sonar, repositioned, then dipped again to make sure you're still where they think you are. Just change course a little while making your noisy flank speed, and they can't react to any changes you make in your course without a full dipping, listening, reeling in, and repositioning cycle, which takes about 2-6 minutes each time.

Helos are great at hunting down subs that stay in a place where their cover is blown thinking that ultra quiet will save them, but they're weak to any sub actually moving around, completely the inverse of the ships they're working with. If you've destroyed the ships, you have absolutely no reason to go ultra quiet, and you just need to go fast.

[Azrael]

I think, soviet ships or subs are already going for your position on the strategic map, if you've sunk a soviet naval contact nearby, atleast it seemed to me like this, I don't know, if that is the case.


Armament wise I think helos and airplanes are just fine, they don't need a buff or nerf regarding that.


Regarding the scenario, which happens very often, I believe, that choppers, as long as they have torpedoes left, would, in RL, try to find you a few times and if they get a rough idea, where you are, they would drop their torpedoes at this position, just to loose that weight, so they can stay longer in the air.

What they'd do afterwards depends on, if land is near or far away, if friendly ships are near or far away.

If land is near and friendly ships are near, they'd probably stay, to keep the contact so reinforcements could fight you.

If land is near and friendly ships are far away, they'd probably stay until the ships are there or they'd have to fly to the ships, otherwise they'd crash with no fuel into the ocean.

If land is near but no friendly ships are near enough there to come (This is the scenario we encounter ingame), they'd drop their weapons in the best known position of the sub a few times and then fly towards either the land (even if it's hostile land, being a POW is better than being dead) or they'd fly for for the friendly ships, if they could atleast get near them and survive the time in the water.

If land is far away and and no ships are there to be on the battlefield in time, I'd believe, they'd even drop their torpedoes randomly and immediately go for the land, because time is of the essence then.

I don't believe that a helicopter crew would follow an order, which would put them to death.
Maybe a few fanatics (like the SS in World War II) would, but the average soldier wouldn't do that, they'd surrender or, in case of the helicopter crew over the open ocean, would get to the next landmass, which they can reach, no matter if controlled by the enemy or by the own army.

The survival instinct is just so strong, no normal human could overcome that.


So, as long as there are no off map assets in the game like Long-Range ASW craft or additional ships coming, they should try to listen for you a few times and either randomly drop their torpedoes then or, if they can find you, drop them on you and then turn tail and run for the next landmass.
Since there is no off map support, everything else would be unrealistic, atleast when you're not near soviet land.

So atleast the landmasses nearby should be taken into consideration in the AI's decision with maybe a random little chance, the helicopter would stay, no matter what, to simulate certain fanatic helicopter crews.

If land is near, they'd stay longer, if it is far away, they'd leave the map sooner.

[The Inept European]

@Justicier and @Azrael pretty much agree with your logic.

To be clear I'm talking about the situation where the aircraft has a contact, isn't just searching for you but has found you and you have not broken the lock. If I was the general in that situation I would be telling the aircraft to hold the contact at very least until it was bingo fuel. If I thought I could get other assets there in time to engage I would order them to stay on station and that SAR was on its way. Agreed the pilots might refuse once they were bingo fuel.

[Azrael]

Well, but we see the helicopters staying there and listening, even if they've lost you.

If, in RL, i'd be a commander, having radio contact with said choppers, and they'd report me, that they've lost the sub, I'd order them to get themselves to safety.
Having lost several ships with several hundred men on board is bad enough, it is unnecessary to loose more men and a helicopter just to stubborness.

But we don't see this ingame, basically, I think, because they have infinite fuel right now.

I guess, no one by chance has actually tested this by staying 4 hours on the tac map, seeing, if the helicopter crashes into the ocean after this time?