**SPOILERS** Figuring out the story

[Smithy]

So I'm trying to make sense of the story (after finishing A-E routes funnily enough) and I'm sort of figuring things out while I write this.

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Why are androids made using machine cores? Machines were the weapons used by the aliens but by the time the aliens invaded humanity was already extinct. This means that androids existed before machines ever set foot on the planet so the early models (such as Popola and Devola) can't have been made using machine cores.

This likely means that whoever created Yorha changed the manufacturing process of androids to use machine cores. (possibly the objective of A2's mission before going rogue?)

Which leads me to wonder more about the creation of Yorha and its purpose. We were given the justification for Yorha's creation by the commander but giving the androids hope isn't a reasonable explanation for the purpose which the bunker served followed by its built in destruction.

The only conclusion which makes any sense to me is that the machines created Yorha.

IF the machines wiped out their creators it means they were probably sentient before arriving on Earth. I believe it went down like this:

The aliens arrive on Earth only to find the human race extinct and the androids losing morale. The aliens, never having encountered a race like humanity, fatally miscalculate the effect their culture would have on free-thinking AI which happens to be exactly what their machine weapons are.

The machines prefer humanity to their alien overlords and instead overthrow and slaughter the aliens in order to follow their new interest. Next they sort of terraform Earth into the perfect laboratory.

They run simulations using low-level intelligence machines who mimick human behavior. They mimick human behavior to the letter because they are trying to learn from the same mistakes that humans made, hence the dialogue about it being as if the machines whole purpose was to fail.

At the same time they made Yorha to create conflict with the purpose of gathering more data and evolving themselves to be more human. After all, humanity has a very bloody past as a result of wars between different races. Different races but at the end of the day we are all the same species (hence the production of androids using the same cores as machines!?!).

Yorha, being a means to an end, was set to be destroyed when suitable information had been gathered. This was the cue given by the birth and death of Adam and Eve. They were the first human-emulated machines to resemble humanity and the pain that Adam dying caused for Eve was the final breakthrough necessary to sufficiently emulate humanity.

The twins called themselves "human emulations". I believe that means they have been using all of the data gathered this entire time to turn themselves more human (or emulate humanity) and are simply the culmination of all of this work.

It's amazing really. This entire time the game was quizzing us about what makes someone human. IF it is simply information then the twins have achieved or are close to achieving what the androids could not. They revived humanity, or at least are coming close to it.

OH! OH! and the story about the machines all being given different treasures? Those treasures were all parts of humanity which those machines were programmed to study.

And in conclusion this war was not meaningless so ♥♥♥♥ you Jean-Paul you smug ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. The androids were fighting for the sake of humanity even if they didn't realise it.

[lessthanoff]

1.) Only the YoRHa androids were made using the machine cores. The other androids, like the resistance androids as well as Devola and Popola, were originally created by the humans. This is why only the YoRHa androids lack proper names (2B, 9S, A2), compared to all other androids.

2.) The YoRHa androids are far more powerful than the androids the humans created, and are able to match the might of the machines. It's hoped that they will be used to turn the tides of the war and reclaim the planet. Project YoRHa was originally created to give hope to all other androids that humanity was still alive on the moon. Since the androids were created to serve mankind, and protect them, their will to fight was greatly diminished when they initially thought that they had all died. Giving them a reason to fight (a god worth dying for) was also a crucial part of trying to win the war against the machines. The Project was altered, however, by an early YoRHa model, no.9, who found out that humanity's existence was faked, and created the backdoor into the bunker, which the subset of the machine network used to send the logic virus through. The network subset (aka: N2) wanted to use the YoRHa androids to put evolutionary pressure on itself, so that it could evolve further (to the point where Adam and Eve were created as the next step in machine evolution). And then, afterwards, it used the backdoor to launch its virus and wipe out YoRHa, as there was no more need of its existence.

3.) The aliens created the machine network to be highly adaptable, so that it could overcome obstacles easily through self-evolution and learning; to always be capable of defeating the enemy. Unfortunately for the aliens, this backfired, and the machines destroyed them when their interests became directed at studying humans, rather than following orders.

[Aemony]

YoRHa units used Machine Cores since their Android creators did not want to waste actual meaningful Android life for their expendable mass-killing monsters. Using the corpses of their enemies to kill even more of the Machines sounds like a good use of resources and doesn’t waste Android lives.

[myhr2]

@ Smithy : yup, that's pretty close to my interpretation, with a few differences. For example, I think the machines were not sentient already when they began to kill the aliens, but it was an ongoing process, since they were designed to study humanity to fight them. But I agree with your conclusion there, the machines were "influenced" by human characteristics, as if humanity was infectious, kinda.

Also, about YoRHA creation (and other interesting aspects), I highly recommend that you check the Concert Scripts, they're short novels that were written by Yoko Taro and red by the voice actors of Nier : Automata before an audience, like some sort of concert, after Nier : Automata was released, and they shed some light unto a few aspects of the story :
https://mintychu.dreamwidth.org/tag/script

The part that I'm talking about is Concert Script n.2, Project YoRHA. What I gathered from it is that the YoRHa Project was initiated by androids, and specifically by pre-YoRHa models. The YoHRa models were designed from the very beginning to be sacrificial lambs, and machines cores were used for performance reasons, in spite of the taboo they were representing, because the YoRHa androids were designed to be destroyed in the end.

Now, the thing is, it's also implied that the machine network learned about that project (maybe some kind of relation with the machine cores, or the network is just that ominous?) In any case, since the project wasn't threatening to it, and in fact could be used to create the emulation necessary to achieve more evolution, the network let it happen and gladly played the part it was supposed to. It doesn't really change anything, but it does render the whole Project YoRHA even more futile, because it's not some kind of manipulation by the machine network, it's even worse, androids coming up with a desperate plan that would just benefit the network in the long run.

And this is another recurring theme in Yoko Taro's work : Grand Plans are doomed from the very beginning, they only generate some kind of intangible pressure akin to "destiny" or "fate" that will proceed to crush individuals, even if they're created with the best intention in the world.

[abdrfy]

I know I am late to this thread. But I would like some one to talk to about the game as I finished it 2-3 of days ago. So, I will just ask and say here and hope some one replies :P - have read many many threads out there about the game and never have I seen any game with this many and with this volume of story discussion threads before.

1- I was under the impression that humans also did create machines, like Engel, Emil etc. Am I mistaken ?

2- I also got an impression that N2 (the red girls) were responsible for creating Yorha and destroying while I was playing the game but after reading so many discussions, I am not so sure anymore. As people say that they only found about back door through 9S.

3- Were N2 the ones who created and sent the virus or was it already part of Yorha project ticking like a time bomb to go off on a specific event or data collection ? Actually this questions related more to who actually created Yorha. I read this thread which states that machines (N2?) created Yorha for evolutionary purpose. But there is another thread on a seperate platform which says that Yorha were created by an outside force not mentioned in this game. Link to the thread:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/168677-nier-automata/75162141

4- Oh and in the ending E, pod mention something like "6 of us", which one is the 6th ? Pod42, Pod153, A2, 2B, 9S and ? Did A2 had a pod int he past ? Pod42 was carrying what appeared to be a pod in the ending as well.

5- If they reassmble these 3 out of old parts, isnt it 100% that they will still be effected by the red virus ?

6- What happened at the end ? :P , did machines(machine network, N2?) left earth in 9S's ending ? Did machines(machine network, N2?) got destroyed in A2's ending ? and ending E was a follow up to either of those 2. Most probably A2's ending since that is more likely since 9S is not a combat model.

I have way more questions and thoughts, I will post them as they come to my mind.

[lessthanoff]

Originally posted by abdrfy:

I know I am late to this thread. But I would like some one to talk to about the game as I finished it 2-3 of days ago. So, I will just ask and say here and hope some one replies :P - have read many many threads out there about the game and never have I seen any game with this many and with this volume of story discussion threads before.

1- I was under the impression that humans also did create machines, like Engel, Emil etc. Am I mistaken ?

2- I also got an impression that N2 (the red girls) were responsible for creating Yorha and destroying while I was playing the game but after reading so many discussions, I am not so sure anymore. As people say that they only found about back door through 9S.

3- Were N2 the ones who created and sent the virus or was it already part of Yorha project ticking like a time bomb to go off on a specific event or data collection ? Actually this questions related more to who actually created Yorha. I read this thread which states that machines (N2?) created Yorha for evolutionary purpose. But there is another thread on a seperate platform which says that Yorha were created by an outside force not mentioned in this game. Link to the thread:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/168677-nier-automata/75162141

4- Oh and in the ending E, pod mention something like "6 of us", which one is the 6th ? Pod42, Pod153, A2, 2B, 9S and ? Did A2 had a pod int he past ? Pod42 was carrying what appeared to be a pod in the ending as well.

5- If they reassmble these 3 out of old parts, isnt it 100% that they will still be effected by the red virus ?

6- What happened at the end ? :P , did machines(machine network, N2?) left earth in 9S's ending ? Did machines(machine network, N2?) got destroyed in A2's ending ? and ending E was a follow up to either of those 2. Most probably A2's ending since that is more likely since 9S is not a combat model.

I have way more questions and thoughts, I will post them as they come to my mind.

1.) The machines were created by the aliens and/or other machines within factories (like the one in the beginning of the game). Emil isn't actually a machine. He's one of the main characters from the original NieR, who used to be a human prior to having a bunch of magical experimentation done to him (made possible by Caim and Angelus coming into the NieR timeline/dimension from the Drakengard timeline/dimension with the Queen Grotesquerie) in order to turn him into a living super weapon.

2 & 3.) N2 did not create YoRHa. The concert scripts Yoko Taro wrote confirm this. YoRHa was the brain-child of the upper-tier androids (one in particular who is not named in-game called Zinnia). The idea behind it was to use the alien cores to make advanced androids while also avoiding the loss of "real" android life in battle. The lie that humanity was still alive was also created in order to bolster android morale, due to them all being programmed to have an innate desire to protect mankind by the humans. An early 9S model named no.9 (who is also the one behind the weird 9S-sounding voice you hear throughout Route B) found out the truth of YoRHa and mankind, and went nuts, killing those responsible and altering the plan. To him, he saw the plan as incomplete, because he believed there was a high risk of information leaking out given enough time, so he programmed the backdoor inside the bunker to activate after a certain amount of time (to give YoRHa enough time to be useful, but not enough for the truth to spread), which would allow the machine virus attacks to flood like water through a busted dam. N2 found this backdoor, as was expected, but it decided to take advantage of the powerful YoRHa androids to put even more evolutionary pressure on itself. After it was satisfied, giving birth to the next step in machine evolution, Adam and Eve, N2 used the backdoor and wiped out YoRHa.

4.) This is really up for interpretation. Some people think it's referring to *you* the player; some people think it's just some other pod, since there are more pods involved than just 153 and 042 -- probably other dead androids' pods.

5.) So, in ending E, I'm pretty sure they're using parts from the access points, since access points have stored YoRHa bodies inside them, which just act as vessels for when the androids send their consciousnesses from one place to the other. Android bodies that were not previously infected shouldn't be an issue (the virus seems to infect both the body and the consciousness; the copies of the memories themselves are likely to be free of infection).

6.) In ending D, N2's evolution reaches new heights, and it becomes capable of empathy. It decides to leave Earth to find a world of its own, because it doesn't want to rob the androids of their own world. In ending C, A2 destroys the machine network. I'm not 100 percent clear on how she does this, but I "think" what happens is that she takes 9S' place in the network (freeing him from the virus) and then destroys it from the inside. It's not made very clear what she does though. Maybe someone else has more insight on this. I'm pretty sure that ending D is the one that leads into ending E, because, in order for ending E to happen, all YoRHa androids must be dead -- this is only confirmed to be the case in ending D, because ending C shows 042 taking 9S to safety after A2 saves him. I suppose you could argue that 9S could have killed himself later on, but that's not a certainty. Plus, I like ending D way more, so I'm a bit biased.

[abdrfy]

Wow man, I am so glad and very grateful that you answered. Thank you very much. If I may, I would like to ask a couple of follow ups :P

Originally posted by lessthanoff:

The machines were created by the aliens and/or other machines within factories (like the one in the beginning of the game)

By factories here you mean factories created by humans ? So indirectly human created ? Like Engel(the big one). Also did they fall under machine network influence and started attacking androids? Coz if androids existed when humans were there (non yorha) then, they would not program Engels to attack androids.

Originally posted by lessthanoff:

An early 9S model named no.9 (who is also the one behind the weird 9S-sounding voice you hear throughout Route B)

I actually did not even notice this and now I feel silly :| , would it be possible to elaborate a bit more. 9S sounding voice. Not sure what you are refering to.

Originally posted by lessthanoff:

2 & 3.) N2 did not create YoRHa. The concert scripts Yoko Taro wrote confirm this. YoRHa was the brain-child of the upper-tier androids (one in particular who is not named in-game called Zinnia). The idea behind it was to use the alien cores to make advanced androids while also avoiding the loss of "real" android life in battle. The lie that humanity was still alive was also created in order to bolster android morale, due to them all being programmed to have an innate desire to protect mankind by the humans. An early 9S model named no.9 (who is also the one behind the weird 9S-sounding voice you hear throughout Route B) found out the truth of YoRHa and mankind, and went nuts, killing those responsible and altering the plan. To him, he saw the plan as incomplete, because he believed there was a high risk of information leaking out given enough time, so he programmed the backdoor inside the bunker to activate after a certain amount of time (to give YoRHa enough time to be useful, but not enough for the truth to spread), which would allow the machine virus attacks to flood like water through a busted dam. N2 found this backdoor, as was expected, but it decided to take advantage of the powerful YoRHa androids to put even more evolutionary pressure on itself. After it was satisfied, giving birth to the next step in machine evolution, Adam and Eve, N2 used the backdoor and wiped out YoRHa.

A little confused here, did N2 wipe out Yorha or No.9's plan. Coz you mentioned both above. No.9 installed backdoor to activate after a certain amount of time and mentioned machine virus (Not sure who is responsible for virus's creation)


Btw when machine network word is used in discussion, does it refer to N2 ? (Is N2 No.2 refered in the scripts - https://mintychu.dreamwidth.org/1371.html#cutid1 ?)
oh and Zinnia was also an android but not a yorha model ?

Once again, I am really grateful for the answers. Thank you very much. I really really appreciate it.

[abdrfy]

And 1 last thing, probably will be last. Thank you for telling me about the scripts.

As I was playing the game, I did not understood why 2B was crying at the end of RouteAB. Why she said why it always has to end like this. I did not realize 2B was 2E. Why 9S in route C said to 2B models that I finally get to kill you. What Adam said to 9S when he was capatured. That he knew that 9S wanted to **** 2B. I think it meant the F word. I had zero clue he meant Kill. Did he meant kill there ? All of this I found out after reading the discussion threads :|

So my question would be did 9S had conflicted feelings about 2B at that point ? Coz script4 suggest that 9S never wanted to kill 2B.

[lessthanoff]

No problem, buddy.

"By factories here you mean factories created by humans ? So indirectly human created ? Like Engel(the big one)."

Factories like the one at the beginning of the game were originally created by humans, but were repurposed by the machines in order to turn them into machine-production facilities. Engels was a goliath-class war machine created for the purposes of fighting the androids, and wasn't produced until February 14, 11934, which was long after the humans went extinct.

"Also did they fall under machine network influence and started attacking androids? Coz if androids existed when humans were there (non yorha) then, they would not program Engels to attack androids."

These particular machines were created by the aliens/other machines for the purposes of fighting the androids; they weren't around back when humans existed. However, there *were* machines prior to the alien invasion, since one of the dungeon areas (an abandoned military base) in the original NieR is full of them -- but they're not the same kinds of machines that appear in Automata, and were not created by the aliens like the ones you saw.

"I actually did not even notice this and now I feel silly :| , would it be possible to elaborate a bit more. 9S sounding voice. Not sure what you are refering to."

So throughout Route B, you'll occasionally see these picture-book-looking cutscenes, which are narrated by 9S. He rambles crazy, vague lines about the machines. At first it just seems like some bizarre 4th-wall-breaking thing, but 9S himself, much to his surprise, actually hears the voice too when he accesses the bunker's server, which heavily indicates that the voice is a recording stored in the YoRHa-related logs. We know from the scripts that an early 9S model was responsible for altering project YoRHa and creating the backdoor, so logically it can be inferred that the voice belonged to him.

"A little confused here, did N2 wipe out Yorha or No.9's plan. Coz you mentioned both above. No.9 installed backdoor to activate after a certain amount of time and mentioned machine virus (Not sure who is responsible for virus's creation)"

The virus is a weapon created by the network, no.9 just knew about it, and knew that if there were any security breaches within the bunker, the machines would find it and attack. Think of the software security of the bunker like a dam, and think of the virus as water being held back by the dam. No.9 went nuts when he found out the truth, but his general plan seemed to be to "fix" Zinnia's project, in order to solve the issue of information leaking out given enough time -- kill all the YoRHa androids to purge potential info leakage, and then set up automated production of new models to replace the destroyed units, in order to start the entire thing again. N2 found the backdoor, but instead of using it immediately, it decided to take advantage of the powerful YoRHa androids and use them to further its own evolution, only destroying them after it was satisfied.

"Btw when machine network word is used in discussion, does it refer to N2 ? (Is N2 No.2 refered in the scripts"

No.2 and N2 are not the same, no. No.2 is an early A2 model (some people think it's an early 2B model, but I don't think this is the case, because the A androids were the prototypes to the B androids, meaning the A androids were created first, while the B androids were modeled afterwards; to be based off them).

As far as N2 being interchangeable with the network, not really. Thanks to the network's vast evolutionary potential and cannibalization of human data, the ego known as N2 emerged from the network as a byproduct.

"oh and Zinnia was also an android but not a yorha model ?"

Correct. Zinnia was sort of the father of YoRHa, so to speak.

[lessthanoff]

"As I was playing the game, I did not understood why 2B was crying at the end of RouteAB. Why she said why it always has to end like this."

This is because she has been forced to kill 9S over and over for years prior to the events of the game, and it tormented her to do so because of her feelings for him.

"Why 9S in route C said to 2B models that I finally get to kill you."

His lines were "I'm glad I got to see you here; I truly am. I'll tear you apart; every last one of you. 2B. 2B. Don't worry. I'm going to kill you now."

At this point in the story, he is completely gone from a psychological standpoint. This version of himself is fueled by hatred, and it has poisoned his love of her, to the extent that killing her and loving her are one in the same. He loves her because he knows she's the only one he and his other selves have been close to, but he also hates her because she is the one constantly taking away his memories of their time together (to him, 2B is his entire life), thus robbing him of who he is.

"What Adam said to 9S when he was capatured. That he knew that 9S wanted to **** 2B. I think it meant the F word. I had zero clue he meant Kill. Did he meant kill there ?"

It's up for interpretation what "****" is supposed to mean, but it's clear Adam had figured out 9S knew the truth about 2B, and was using that knowledge to show him how much potential for hatred was inside his heart.

"So my question would be did 9S had conflicted feelings about 2B at that point ? Coz script4 suggest that 9S never wanted to kill 2B."

One important thing to note is that these are all technically different versions of 9S. They all start with the same personality data, but they each grow differently depending on their external influences. It's clear the events surrounding the 9S in Automata caused him to develop these love/hate feelings for her, whereas in previous versions, he was genuinely in love with her and didn't want to put her through the pain of having to kill him again (which is why he kills himself in one of the scenarios in the scripts). He still does love her more than anything here though, because even when he is saying he's going to kill her, he is saying it in a way which suggests that he is putting her out of her misery ("Don't worry. I'm going to kill you now"), because he knows deep down that living as she did was pure agony for her.

[abdrfy]

Omg :|
Thank you so much for clearing these things out. They really gave me alot of closure. Story got really really intense in route C, to the extent that I ignored all side quests and just went through the story all chocked up, barely able to finish the game. (my lvl was maxed out from grinding parts for upgrades till 65 and then park statue, so it was quiet fast)

[lessthanoff]

Originally posted by abdrfy:

Omg :|
Thank you so much for clearing these things out. They really gave me alot of closure. Story got really really intense in route C, to the extent that I ignored all side quests and just went through the story all chocked up, barely able to finish the game. (my lvl was maxed out from grinding parts for upgrades till 65 and then park statue, so it was quiet fast)

You're welcome, buddy. Yeah, Route C is top-tier stuff, in my opinion.