Hard mode intro is rubbish

[Delta]

Sure, let's have the player go through an entire chapter full of stuff some of which can one-shot them and force them to sit through the same repetetive cutscenes every time they fail.

I get that Normal mode (which I've fully completed) was way too easy (unlimited healing items, broken chips and powerful POD specials take away any teeth) but this is ridiculous, and the total lack of checkpoints just smacks of bad design to be honest (and no, the joke ending doesn't excuse it).

Don't get me wrong I love the game overall, but it seems a real shame Platinum seems to have used the fact it's an RPG as an excuse not to bother balancing things as well as they do in their action titles. Heck the entire levelling system is pointless and only forces you to save certain quests for later because you can't deal damage to the enemy (even after doing 90% of sidequests and getting endings C/D I was still dealing only 1 damage to the bonus boss in the caves).

Sorry about the rant, it's just a shame to have the experienced marred by something that would be so easy to fix.

[Seni4]

Hard mode prologue is considered to be the most difficult part of the game due to a lack of save points and abilities 1-shotting you. People recommend using Normal difficulty in the Prologue, then switch it up to Hard or Very Hard after that.

[Aemony]

The scaling in this game is one of the weaker aspect of the game, both in terms of difficulty levels and enemy level scaling or lack thereof.

[Delta]

Originally posted by Aemony:

The scaling in this game is one of the weaker aspect of the game, both in terms of difficulty levels and enemy level scaling or lack thereof.

Yeah, I kinda wish there were some sort of mod to force both the player and all enemies to the same level.

I mean if you really want a levelling system, why not have levels provide new chip slots instead of letting you just buy them? That would solve part of the overpowered chips problem too, as well as making level ups feel meaningful rather than a case of "oh damn, there goes another bit of challenge".

Thanks for the suggestion about switching difficulty, I'd been reluctant to do it until now but I feel better about it if it's something plenty of others have done (especially as there doesn't seem to be any achievement tied to it or anything).

[k4t]

Consider it a gateway test, If you can not do it in hard mode there is a good chance the rest of the game would be unenjoyable to continue playing in hard mode.

[Delta]

Originally posted by k4t:

Consider it a gateway test, If you can not do it in hard mode there is a good chance the rest of the game would be unenjoyable to continue playing in hard mode.

I'd argue from a design perspective it's bad even as a gateway test. No other point in the game is close to as challenging (with the possible exception of ending E without help) so it's not representative of the rest of the game.

The only effect is likely to be the the player saying "Oh, hard mode only adds artificial difficulty by having excessively long periods between checkpoints, rather than being tough but fair. I'm not putting up with that even if Normal is too easy". Sure we know the game gets more forgiving later, but new players have no way of knowing that.

I'm not opposed to tough games for the record, just ones that waste the player's time by making them replay entire sections they've proved they can already do just to have another shot at the bit they find difficult.

[Exarch_Alpha]

To be honest only the prologue is that annoying in Hard. At the same time when you die in Hard prologue you know why you die - it´s difficult, but not frustating. If you have trouble with the saws don´t forget you have 3 items that reduce melee damage and they will save you from one hit kills.

The rest is having mastery of the game, which is, well, kinda the point of ANY Hard mode. If you beat it in your first try, then it doesn´t deserve to be called hard.

[dnru]

git gud

[Delta]

Originally posted by Exarch_Alpha:

To be honest only the prologue is that annoying in Hard. At the same time when you die in Hard prologue you know why you die - it´s difficult, but not frustating. If you have trouble with the saws don´t forget you have 3 items that reduce melee damage and they will save you from one hit kills.

The rest is having mastery of the game, which is, well, kinda the point of ANY Hard mode. If you beat it in your first try, then it doesn´t deserve to be called hard.

My point though wasn't that the intro is too hard per se, but that it's needlessly punishing and frustrating given the lack of checkpoints. I don't mind replaying a section if i make a mistake, but replaying an entire chapter is simply excessive.

Limited checkpoints are simply an artificial way of adding difficulty. Better games will have harder gameplay but more regular checkpoints so the player can quickly try again without being needlessly punished. Look at how Super Meat Boy has 1 second respawns when you die, or how even Dark Souls (one of the poster boys for tough games) still seldom has you spend more than a minute or two getting back to boss that took you to school as long as you find all the bonfires and shortcuts.

Making me replay a 10+ minute level all because I missed one jump at the end is just wasting my time. Make the jump twice as hard and give me as many tries as I like and that's my kind of difficulty.

[Renka]

I cleared the hard mode prologue 3 times after tons of tries,but in my current new save (Hard/Very Hard) i cleared the prologue for the 1st time in normal because ♥♥♥♥ em

I wouldlnt mind doing the full prologue again but i can't control 2B directly,i have to watch THIS ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ MOVIE and doing THE GODDANM SHOOTER things again and again ,before controlling 2B

[NuMetalBaggyJeans]

Originally posted by k4t:

Consider it a gateway test, If you can not do it in hard mode there is a good chance the rest of the game would be unenjoyable to continue playing in hard mode.

Its far from being a gateway test. Its bad game design. I should not have to sit through the stupid intro dialogues every single time i die to a stupid one shot skill.
One of the better gateway tests examples would be darksouls for the intro boss ludex gyundr pretty much separates people who can handle the game from the ones who cant in the tutorial itself. And i have watched some of my friends who dont like these kinds of games give up because hte game is not meant for them. BUT, they never had to sit through any stupid intros or dialogues to just get one shotted and sit through that all over again. And I think DS series could be one of the games with better game design in gaming today.
All I am saying is they should simply provide an option to skip the stupid dialogues in the beginning of the game. Having less save spots is not the problem at all.

[NuMetalBaggyJeans]

Originally posted by Delta:

Originally posted by Exarch_Alpha:

To be honest only the prologue is that annoying in Hard. At the same time when you die in Hard prologue you know why you die - it´s difficult, but not frustating. If you have trouble with the saws don´t forget you have 3 items that reduce melee damage and they will save you from one hit kills.

The rest is having mastery of the game, which is, well, kinda the point of ANY Hard mode. If you beat it in your first try, then it doesn´t deserve to be called hard.

My point though wasn't that the intro is too hard per se, but that it's needlessly punishing and frustrating given the lack of checkpoints. I don't mind replaying a section if i make a mistake, but replaying an entire chapter is simply excessive.

Limited checkpoints are simply an artificial way of adding difficulty. Better games will have harder gameplay but more regular checkpoints so the player can quickly try again without being needlessly punished. Look at how Super Meat Boy has 1 second respawns when you die, or how even Dark Souls (one of the poster boys for tough games) still seldom has you spend more than a minute or two getting back to boss that took you to school as long as you find all the bonfires and shortcuts.

Making me replay a 10+ minute level all because I missed one jump at the end is just wasting my time. Make the jump twice as hard and give me as many tries as I like and that's my kind of difficulty.

I agree.

[NuMetalBaggyJeans]

The dialogues are also not something great. Some ambiguous ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ (Cryptic puzzles, eh ?
) being spewed just for the sake of it. -_-
PS. I m totally tilted. sorry.

[Exarch_Alpha]

Originally posted by Delta:

Making me replay a 10+ minute level all because I missed one jump at the end is just wasting my time. Make the jump twice as hard and give me as many tries as I like and that's my kind of difficulty.

Won´t change my opinion. You have unlimited practice time on Normal. Learn attack patterns and use them. Use all your items, no point in saving damage boosters.

Besides Engels on prologue is actually harder than other bosses because no chips and no 50 large restorers so you shouldn´t feel bad by losing. I would be more embarassed if I lost to Adam or the final boss...

[黒猫]

Originally posted by k4t:

Consider it a gateway test, If you can not do it in hard mode there is a good chance the rest of the game would be unenjoyable to continue playing in hard mode.

Nah dude. Rest of the game is pretty easy on hard mode. Prologue is nothing but disaster. You can't even skip start sequence. After 22th attempt I passed through prologue on Hard, but it was frustrating as fu*k.

[Outsider]

I could give you a "git gud" but you can also select easy mode.
So.
Select easy mode.
And be happy casual player.