Who is a better storyteller: Yoko Taro or Hideo Kojima

[Jubbs]

both of these amazing storytellers have created countless games with amazing characters, soundtracks, and stories. Its been said many times that if they teamed up the result would be the best single player experience ever created. But who is better at creating fictional universes?

[annoying dog]

iemander eredeti hozzászólása:

annoying dog eredeti hozzászólása:

It really seems like you don't actually know anything about good storytelling. Just because you like games like Dragon Age Origins or Spec Ops more doesn't mean that they are objectively better at storytelling than Kojima or Taro. Taste is a thing and if you like those types of games more than that's fine but don't act like Taro and Kojima are bad at what they are doing just because you don't like some elements from their type of storytelling.

Empty words, you need to back up why exactly you have this opinion if you truly believe this. Instead of making these empty statements.

Taro makes amazing games and he's capable of really getting you invested in the narrative. But only due to a small part because of the storytelling, which is by far outclassed by games like DA Origins.

Spec ops I don't know, never played.

I guess only my first statement was "empty". It's just a fact that this dude objectively said that Taro and Kojima are "not even good writers". And I said that just because he doesn't like the storys of the game they made, he shouldn't act like they are objectivley bad writers.

[annoying dog]

You just said some "empty" stuff as well. You said that Taros games are able to captivate only because of a very small part of the storytelling. What part? Plus, DA origin is pretty generic. Boring presentation, blant world, lackluster execution so on and so on. The Nier and Drakengard game are far superior both in characters, narrative and atmosphere. I think you are just tricked in believing that Origins is that great because at that time it came out, it probably was the best there was.

[Aemony]

I love Dragon Age: Origins. I think I even ranked it the best RPG of the last decade. But even so, I can't disagree with anyone saying it's actually rather generic and clichéd, because it really is. That said, I do disagree with the statement that the execution was lackluster. It was in many ways almost perfectly executed for what it intended to be, a callback to the generic fantasy adventure trope (read: LOTR) and RPGs of old.

Dislike the individual elements as much as you like, but BioWare nailed the execution of the whole package. It was truly a game where the sum was greater than the parts.

[M3chaMike]

WeissYuki eredeti hozzászólása:

iemander eredeti hozzászólása:

Empty words, you need to back up why exactly you have this opinion if you truly believe this. Instead of making these empty statements.

Taro makes amazing games and he's capable of really getting you invested in the narrative. But only due to a small part because of the storytelling, which is by far outclassed by games like DA Origins.

Spec ops I don't know, never played.

This statement feels weird. It's like storytelling doesn't include theme, atmosphere and presentation.

You're right, it is exactly like that. Storytelling is about the plot, the characters, and the presentation of those two things.

In Yoko Taro's and Hideo Kojima's games, characters are often fairly one-dimensional. 2B is an assassin who doesn't want to assassin. Snake is a soldier, who... soldiers. Nier is a father. Etc. Etc. Their one main trait determines 90% of their actions in their games.

Or you have characters like the Machine AI with traits and motivations that make no sense.

That doesn't mean you don't have outliers like Special Agent Francis York Morgan, or Kaine. But they're the exception.

In terms of plot. I mean, the plot of Nier Automata's been done a hundred times before. Metal Gear Solid is just a military action movie with some supernatural and wierd science thrown in for flavor. Nier itself was just a fantasy story.

Sure, the presentation for these are fantastic, and why most their games are considered by many (including me) to be excellent.

But that doesn't mean I'm going to give them credit for something they don't actually do well.

[WeissYuki]

M3chaMike eredeti hozzászólása:

WeissYuki eredeti hozzászólása:

This statement feels weird. It's like storytelling doesn't include theme, atmosphere and presentation.

You're right, it is exactly like that. Storytelling is about the plot, the characters, and the presentation of those two things.

In Yoko Taro's and Hideo Kojima's games, characters are often fairly one-dimensional. 2B is an assassin who doesn't want to assassin. Snake is a soldier, who... soldiers. Nier is a father. Etc. Etc. Their one main trait determines 90% of their actions in their games.

Or you have characters like the Machine AI with traits and motivations that make no sense.

That doesn't mean you don't have outliers like Special Agent Francis York Morgan, or Kaine. But they're the exception.

In terms of plot. I mean, the plot of Nier Automata's been done a hundred times before. Metal Gear Solid is just a military action movie with some supernatural and wierd science thrown in for flavor. Nier itself was just a fantasy story.

Sure, the presentation for these are fantastic, and why most their games are considered by many (including me) to be excellent.

But that doesn't mean I'm going to give them credit for something they don't actually do well.

Wait, have you played MGS or the 2nd playthrough of Nier Automata ? I mean, I can't really blame anyone thinking playing once is enough knowing how empty AAA are, but still...

"In Yoko Taro's and Hideo Kojima's games, characters are often fairly one-dimensional. 2B is an assassin who doesn't want to assassin. Snake is a soldier, who... soldiers. Nier is a father. Etc. Etc. Their one main trait determines 90% of their actions in their games."

(In the scenario where you are right) At least those traits are believable. "Press the blue answer for everything to end well" feels a lot more bland and silly for me.

"In terms of plot. I mean, the plot of Nier Automata's been done a hundred times before. Metal Gear Solid is just a military action movie with some supernatural and wierd science thrown in for flavor. Nier itself was just a fantasy story."

is where I start to laugh like an idiot. Books rejecting existential crisises exists so Nier Automata's plot has been done over and over... I guess (?)
It's not like saving the world from an absolute evil doing evil things "because we're too advanced for your understanding" is new...
MGS is a bit more complicated because, as I said before, Kojima is a lot more subtle than Taro
so... Just play MGS 2 and you will understand.

[M3chaMike]

WeissYuki eredeti hozzászólása:

M3chaMike eredeti hozzászólása:

You're right, it is exactly like that. Storytelling is about the plot, the characters, and the presentation of those two things.

In Yoko Taro's and Hideo Kojima's games, characters are often fairly one-dimensional. 2B is an assassin who doesn't want to assassin. Snake is a soldier, who... soldiers. Nier is a father. Etc. Etc. Their one main trait determines 90% of their actions in their games.

Or you have characters like the Machine AI with traits and motivations that make no sense.

That doesn't mean you don't have outliers like Special Agent Francis York Morgan, or Kaine. But they're the exception.

In terms of plot. I mean, the plot of Nier Automata's been done a hundred times before. Metal Gear Solid is just a military action movie with some supernatural and wierd science thrown in for flavor. Nier itself was just a fantasy story.

Sure, the presentation for these are fantastic, and why most their games are considered by many (including me) to be excellent.

But that doesn't mean I'm going to give them credit for something they don't actually do well.

Wait, have you played MGS or the 2nd playthrough of Nier Automata ? I mean, I can't really blame anyone thinking playing once is enough knowing how empty AAA are, but still...

"In Yoko Taro's and Hideo Kojima's games, characters are often fairly one-dimensional. 2B is an assassin who doesn't want to assassin. Snake is a soldier, who... soldiers. Nier is a father. Etc. Etc. Their one main trait determines 90% of their actions in their games."

(In the scenario where you are right) At least those traits are believable. "Press the blue answer for everything to end well" feels a lot more bland and silly for me.

"In terms of plot. I mean, the plot of Nier Automata's been done a hundred times before. Metal Gear Solid is just a military action movie with some supernatural and wierd science thrown in for flavor. Nier itself was just a fantasy story."

is where I start to laugh like an idiot. Books rejecting existential crisises exists so Nier Automata's plot has been done over and over... I guess (?)
It's not like saving the world from an absolute evil doing evil things "because we're too advanced for your understanding" is new...
MGS is a bit more complicated because, as I said before, Kojima is a lot more subtle than Taro
so... Just play MGS 2 and you will understand.

MGS2? Really? I mean, it's a good game, but it's pretty much the poster child for 80's and 90's military action movies.

And yes, I played the entirety of Nier Automata. 2B is an assassin who doesn't want to kill her targets any more. That's it. That's her character developement.
Nier Automata's theme has been done in books, movies, and games. Also, the third act doesn't really use the AI themes that well, it basically just becomes a story about PTSD with a theme about existential crisis and AI laid thinly on top.

A game that actually deals with these themes in an interesting way, in my opinion, is Planescape Torment. It actually uses it's theme of life and death in it's story, characters, and gameplay.

Or Baldur's Gate 2, with a sympathetic antagonist, and an examination of gods, religion, and fate in a world where the gods can just pop down from time to time to mingle with their followers.

[annoying dog]

" the plot of Nier Automata's been done a hundred times before"
And the plot of DA Origin not? You can't be serious about that
You said the story has been done numerous time in many other medias. But all of the stories from the other games you already said have been made numerous times as well. DA Origin is just a generic fantasy story. Spec Ops is technically a military story as well.

[annoying dog]

M3chaMike eredeti hozzászólása:

WeissYuki eredeti hozzászólása:

Wait, have you played MGS or the 2nd playthrough of Nier Automata ? I mean, I can't really blame anyone thinking playing once is enough knowing how empty AAA are, but still...

"In Yoko Taro's and Hideo Kojima's games, characters are often fairly one-dimensional. 2B is an assassin who doesn't want to assassin. Snake is a soldier, who... soldiers. Nier is a father. Etc. Etc. Their one main trait determines 90% of their actions in their games."

(In the scenario where you are right) At least those traits are believable. "Press the blue answer for everything to end well" feels a lot more bland and silly for me.

"In terms of plot. I mean, the plot of Nier Automata's been done a hundred times before. Metal Gear Solid is just a military action movie with some supernatural and wierd science thrown in for flavor. Nier itself was just a fantasy story."

is where I start to laugh like an idiot. Books rejecting existential crisises exists so Nier Automata's plot has been done over and over... I guess (?)
It's not like saving the world from an absolute evil doing evil things "because we're too advanced for your understanding" is new...
MGS is a bit more complicated because, as I said before, Kojima is a lot more subtle than Taro
so... Just play MGS 2 and you will understand.

MGS2? Really? I mean, it's a good game, but it's pretty much the poster child for 80's and 90's military action movies.

And yes, I played the entirety of Nier Automata. 2B is an assassin who doesn't want to kill her targets any more. That's it. That's her character developement.
Nier Automata's theme has been done in books, movies, and games. Also, the third act doesn't really use the AI themes that well, it basically just becomes a story about PTSD with a theme about existential crisis and AI laid thinly on top.

A game that actually deals with these themes in an interesting way, in my opinion, is Planescape Torment. It actually uses it's theme of life and death in it's story, characters, and gameplay.

Or Baldur's Gate 2, with a sympathetic antagonist, and an examination of gods, religion, and fate in a world where the gods can just pop down from time to time to mingle with their followers.

You do know that most of 2B's character development is in the novels, do you?

[WeissYuki]

M3chaMike eredeti hozzászólása:

WeissYuki eredeti hozzászólása:

Wait, have you played MGS or the 2nd playthrough of Nier Automata ? I mean, I can't really blame anyone thinking playing once is enough knowing how empty AAA are, but still...

"In Yoko Taro's and Hideo Kojima's games, characters are often fairly one-dimensional. 2B is an assassin who doesn't want to assassin. Snake is a soldier, who... soldiers. Nier is a father. Etc. Etc. Their one main trait determines 90% of their actions in their games."

(In the scenario where you are right) At least those traits are believable. "Press the blue answer for everything to end well" feels a lot more bland and silly for me.

"In terms of plot. I mean, the plot of Nier Automata's been done a hundred times before. Metal Gear Solid is just a military action movie with some supernatural and wierd science thrown in for flavor. Nier itself was just a fantasy story."

is where I start to laugh like an idiot. Books rejecting existential crisises exists so Nier Automata's plot has been done over and over... I guess (?)
It's not like saving the world from an absolute evil doing evil things "because we're too advanced for your understanding" is new...
MGS is a bit more complicated because, as I said before, Kojima is a lot more subtle than Taro
so... Just play MGS 2 and you will understand.

MGS2? Really? I mean, it's a good game, but it's pretty much the poster child for 80's and 90's military action movies.

And yes, I played the entirety of Nier Automata. 2B is an assassin who doesn't want to kill her targets any more. That's it. That's her character developement.
Nier Automata's theme has been done in books, movies, and games. Also, the third act doesn't really use the AI themes that well, it basically just becomes a story about PTSD with a theme about existential crisis and AI laid thinly on top.

A game that actually deals with these themes in an interesting way, in my opinion, is Planescape Torment. It actually uses it's theme of life and death in it's story, characters, and gameplay.

Or Baldur's Gate 2, with a sympathetic antagonist, and an examination of gods, religion, and fate in a world where the gods can just pop down from time to time to mingle with their followers.

Ok, so you don't understand the game, it's OK. i had to make quite the number of researches to get it too, but the most common and logical interpretation goes like this :

21st centuy japan is a society where your entire existence is defined by your job, to the point where it's like your entire self is defined by your purpose. Yoko Taro wanted to take a look at this by showing the silliest and darkest sides of this way of thinking. Fortunately, Videogame just happens to be a media where everything is driven by purpose, which made it a perfect medium for this kind of story.
What results of this is a rejection of many texts trying to define a purpose for our life in the most nihilistic context available while inserting interesting commentaries on war, a sort of satire on religion (though since it's just a part of the bigger theme, it's not developed) between moments where people suffer from their own pursuit of greater purpose (2B killing 9S over and over, 9S faling into madness, the machines stucking themselves into a loop) while A2 who is just wandering with the wind is actually getting her redemption.

All of this culminates with ending E where you and the pods defy pretty much the game (symbolised by the credits), a sign of this rejection of greater purpose for smaller victories that may not impact the greater scale but will leave a big impact on your life.

This is definitely naive as a message, but I love this kind of optimism, it means that all this pain has not been in vain, unlike those games where the writer gets off from watching people suffer.

[Arcamir Wraith]

Miyazaki

[M3chaMike]

annoying dog eredeti hozzászólása:

M3chaMike eredeti hozzászólása:

MGS2? Really? I mean, it's a good game, but it's pretty much the poster child for 80's and 90's military action movies.

And yes, I played the entirety of Nier Automata. 2B is an assassin who doesn't want to kill her targets any more. That's it. That's her character developement.
Nier Automata's theme has been done in books, movies, and games. Also, the third act doesn't really use the AI themes that well, it basically just becomes a story about PTSD with a theme about existential crisis and AI laid thinly on top.

A game that actually deals with these themes in an interesting way, in my opinion, is Planescape Torment. It actually uses it's theme of life and death in it's story, characters, and gameplay.

Or Baldur's Gate 2, with a sympathetic antagonist, and an examination of gods, religion, and fate in a world where the gods can just pop down from time to time to mingle with their followers.

You do know that most of 2B's character development is in the novels, do you?

It doesn't matter if it's in the novels, we're talking about the game.

Hell, Master Chief is a great and multifaceted character... in the novels. But I wouldn't say that he's an excellent character in the games, because his motivation is mostly to be a soldier.

[M3chaMike]

WeissYuki eredeti hozzászólása:

M3chaMike eredeti hozzászólása:

MGS2? Really? I mean, it's a good game, but it's pretty much the poster child for 80's and 90's military action movies.

And yes, I played the entirety of Nier Automata. 2B is an assassin who doesn't want to kill her targets any more. That's it. That's her character developement.
Nier Automata's theme has been done in books, movies, and games. Also, the third act doesn't really use the AI themes that well, it basically just becomes a story about PTSD with a theme about existential crisis and AI laid thinly on top.

A game that actually deals with these themes in an interesting way, in my opinion, is Planescape Torment. It actually uses it's theme of life and death in it's story, characters, and gameplay.

Or Baldur's Gate 2, with a sympathetic antagonist, and an examination of gods, religion, and fate in a world where the gods can just pop down from time to time to mingle with their followers.

Ok, so you don't understand the game, it's OK. i had to make quite the number of researches to get it too, but the most common and logical interpretation goes like this :

21st centuy japan is a society where your entire existence is defined by your job, to the point where it's like your entire self is defined by your purpose. Yoko Taro wanted to take a look at this by showing the silliest and darkest sides of this way of thinking. Fortunately, Videogame just happens to be a media where everything is driven by purpose, which made it a perfect medium for this kind of story.
What results of this is a rejection of many texts trying to define a purpose for our life in the most nihilistic context available while inserting interesting commentaries on war, a sort of satire on religion (though since it's just a part of the bigger theme, it's not developed) between moments where people suffer from their own pursuit of greater purpose (2B killing 9S over and over, 9S faling into madness, the machines stucking themselves into a loop) while A2 who is just wandering with the wind is actually getting her redemption.

All of this culminates with ending E where you and the pods defy pretty much the game (symbolised by the credits), a sign of this rejection of greater purpose for smaller victories that may not impact the greater scale but will leave a big impact on your life.

This is definitely naive as a message, but I love this kind of optimism, it means that all this pain has not been in vain, unlike those games where the writer gets off from watching people suffer.

Look, I understand the themes of the game just fine. I also understand the parrallels between Nier Automata's story and modern Japanese culture.

But just because the story is a parrallel for predestiny and existence in modern Japanese culture, does not make it completely different story than one about predestiny and existence in general.
It's still the go to theme in almost every cyberpunk sci-fi story dealing with AI and/or cybernetic augmentations.

[annoying dog]

M3chaMike eredeti hozzászólása:

annoying dog eredeti hozzászólása:

You do know that most of 2B's character development is in the novels, do you?

It doesn't matter if it's in the novels, we're talking about the game.

Hell, Master Chief is a great and multifaceted character... in the novels. But I wouldn't say that he's an excellent character in the games, because his motivation is mostly to be a soldier.

But the writing style of Taro needs you to go outsite of the game itself. Same thing was with the first NieR and Drakengrad 3. The Automata concerts were for example used to develop the relationship between 9S and 2B.

[WeissYuki]

M3chaMike eredeti hozzászólása:

WeissYuki eredeti hozzászólása:

Ok, so you don't understand the game, it's OK. i had to make quite the number of researches to get it too, but the most common and logical interpretation goes like this :

21st centuy japan is a society where your entire existence is defined by your job, to the point where it's like your entire self is defined by your purpose. Yoko Taro wanted to take a look at this by showing the silliest and darkest sides of this way of thinking. Fortunately, Videogame just happens to be a media where everything is driven by purpose, which made it a perfect medium for this kind of story.
What results of this is a rejection of many texts trying to define a purpose for our life in the most nihilistic context available while inserting interesting commentaries on war, a sort of satire on religion (though since it's just a part of the bigger theme, it's not developed) between moments where people suffer from their own pursuit of greater purpose (2B killing 9S over and over, 9S faling into madness, the machines stucking themselves into a loop) while A2 who is just wandering with the wind is actually getting her redemption.

All of this culminates with ending E where you and the pods defy pretty much the game (symbolised by the credits), a sign of this rejection of greater purpose for smaller victories that may not impact the greater scale but will leave a big impact on your life.

This is definitely naive as a message, but I love this kind of optimism, it means that all this pain has not been in vain, unlike those games where the writer gets off from watching people suffer.

Look, I understand the themes of the game just fine. I also understand the parrallels between Nier Automata's story and modern Japanese culture.

But just because the story is a parrallel for predestiny and existence in modern Japanese culture, does not make it completely different story than one about predestiny and existence in general.
It's still the go to theme in almost every cyberpunk sci-fi story dealing with AI and/or cybernetic augmentations.

Except this one is optimistic. Of course there are a lot of games about how life is crap (the "people gets off from watching people suffer" thing) but all of them try so hard to be all dark and depressing. There's nothing refreshing about it. It's played out and bland. That's what I have against most occidental RPGs. They try hard to be depressing, but we know that, and we've already seen it before, better.
Weirdly enough, I think the hopeful message of the game works all the better thanks to all this edgy pseudo-counterculture.
Because there are numerous proofs that life sucks, but very few that life can be great.

[whoami]

Just want to point out: SPOILERS in dis thread.

• Use dis function -> XENOGEARS BEST - point made
• Automata' depth in storytelling lies deeply hidden in it's sidequests
• The interaction between characters and its world/surroundings is way more deep, elaborated and credible in MGS franchise than in yoko games. [games][games were you game][games like let's plays]
  
• they both do deliver at what they stand for
  
• i do enjoy both of em and many more