Lets discuss the hard question about the game and androids.

[Young Erusean Officer]

Androids can backup themselves into the bunker and be uploaded/transfered into a new body upon destruction. If this isn't the case, such as 9S. Their memories are lost. 2B even mentions that because of that, it wouldn't be really be him there and tried to protest.

However, what the game avoided to touch either as an intentional oversight due to plot or a simple plothole is something quite simple:

Even if the android is restored with all his/her previous memories, is it technically the same person or a simple copy of one? So technically, whenever someone gets restored in the game (all 3 in Route E for instance) they are not the actual people (considering them people or not is a point too wild and would stray to much for the current subject) but rather mere copies of them. Perfect copies, but copies nonetheless. So the original or previous copy, is in fact gone and was replaced. Bittersweet, isn't it?

Before someone brings up a certain point let's look at cloning for instance. Although making a perfect clone won't be possible anytime soon as cloning right now rather works like making kids artifically and not making someone or something in its likeness. Nevermind giving something the same personality and memories because the first is something that as formed over the course of its life while the clone would diverge to have its own. If technology gets that far it is very distant to today too.

So let's say they could technically make two 9S exist at once. The restored backup 9S and an exact copy exactly at the same time. Upon the first second upon waking up, they would no longer be the same person. Don't think there's anything else I can bring up to make my point more clear. However, discussion on the subject would be greatly welcomed.

Anyways, sorry for ruining pretty much all Routes for you guys.

[Aemony]

This is basically the transporter / teleporter discussion from Star Trek again. Basically, the android society have worked long enough with backups to disregard this fact. A parallel can be drawn to humans and sleep. After all, how can you be sure that it is actually you who wake up in the morning, and not a mere copy of yourself?

So while true, this doesn't really distract from the game at all and is but a mere interesting remark.

That's also why android society only allows one copy of the android to be active at a time, to prevent these situations to occur. So basically they've already decided that "the active copy" is the real android, regardless of what.

However it would've been fun if this was included in the game as a sidequest where two copies of the same android were actually enabled at the same time. Though the problem with using androids as an example is that they're probably more than capable of merging their memories/characters between copies, aka fusing into one.

[chickadeedeedee]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Huemaster:

I think the Ship of Theseus does not apply to people. That's probably because I believe the important things are upstairs. If I were to lose my arm and replace it with a cybernetic arm, I would still be me. I'd look different and feel different but everything that makes me, unconditionally would still be me.

For instance, a perfect clone of me after existing for one month would not be able to pass as me in a phone call to a friend of mine I spoken to daily. He'd sound like me and manage to fool him a while but suddenly subjects me and friendly talked vividly and extensively for would cause many question marks. Then my friend would just test him more and more and find more blank areas. He might not challenge and question his identity open, but he'd be suspicious.

Think of spooky old school body snatchers movie scenario.

A perfect clone (in the hypothetical thought experiment sense, not the practical one) would have a perfect copy of your memories and experiences. He might believe himself to be you as much as you do, unless he was explicitly told otherwise. I think he would do a fine job of "impersonating" you.

He would certainly have more in common with you than, say, who you were 10 years ago, both in thought processes and physical makeup.

For most people it's the continuity that's key. You from 10 years ago ship-of-theseus'd into you now, whereas Clone You has no direct connection, even if he is atom-for-atom identical.

[Young Erusean Officer]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Aemony:

This is basically the transporter / teleporter discussion from Star Trek again. Basically, the android society have worked long enough with backups to disregard this fact. A parallel can be drawn to humans and sleep. After all, how can you be sure that it is actually you who wake up in the morning, and not a mere copy of yourself?

So while true, this doesn't really distract from the game at all and is but a mere interesting remark.

That's also why android society only allows one copy of the android to be active at a time, to prevent these situations to occur. So basically they've already decided that "the active copy" is the real android, regardless of what.

However it would've been fun if this was included in the game as a sidequest where two copies of the same android were actually enabled at the same time. Though the problem with using androids as an example is that they're probably more than capable of merging their memories/characters between copies, aka fusing into one.

Honestly, I seriously thought A2 would either sacrifice herself in the end and allow 2B to come back. Either that or 2B somehow would live on inside of her. Think that would have been more interesting really but can't complain much considering the usual endings we get from Yoko Taro. It is a happy ending if you would ignore the points raised in this thread.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von chickadeedeedee:

A perfect clone (in the hypothetical thought experiment sense, not the practical one) would have a perfect copy of your memories and experiences. He might believe himself to be you as much as you do, unless he was explicitly told otherwise. I think he would do a fine job of "impersonating" you.

He would certainly have more in common with you than, say, who you were 10 years ago, both in thought processes and physical makeup.

For most people it's the continuity that's key. You from 10 years ago ship-of-theseus'd into you now, whereas Clone You has no direct connection, even if he is atom-for-atom identical.

That was a perfect of clone, made a month ago. Unless we synchronize our thoughts and memories or are a hivemind, he became someone else within moments of existing. He would also increasingly become more himself and less me with each passing day. So no, all the things me and my friends talked about. He has no idea what they were, which would raise suspicion from this friend of mine like I explained earlier.

It is why I mentioned the body snatcher theme. Sometimes that's when the protagonists discover they aren't speaking with the same person.

[Aemony]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Huemaster:

Honestly, I seriously thought A2 would either sacrifice herself in the end and allow 2B to come back. Either that or 2B somehow would live on inside of her. Think that would have been more interesting really but can't complain much considering the usual endings we get from Yoko Taro. It is a happy ending if you would ignore the points raised in this thread.

That was actually my own thought as well. Didn't really take 2B's death that serious since it always seemed that they would merge or something similar. The "my memories are contained in this sword..." and Anemone's comments that they look alike only enhanced that thought.

But that actually brings another great thing in this game to mind... If you haven't already, read through the text on 9S' sword (Cruel Blood Oath) and realize the implications of it. It even builds into this whole discussion.

[HassleDuff]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Huemaster:

Honestly, I seriously thought A2 would either sacrifice herself in the end and allow 2B to come back. Either that or 2B somehow would live on inside of her.

That's what I was thinking. When A2 cut her hair, it was to imply that their models are one and the same, and that sharing her memories with 2B would have her transform into the mindset that made 2B eventually show compassion. Maybe that's why I though her route ending was underwhelming to me; it didn't feel quite as conclusive as 9S's route ending.

[Climhazzard]

I personally chose to believe that 2B's memories affected A2 a lot more than the game implicates. Basically when you first get to play A2 she is fairly close minded and barely wants anything to do with the pod, but after their memories start merging she becomes more accepting and eventually even accepts Pascal just as 2B did. Though 2B was my favorite character I would have been happy with an ending where she only lived on as a part of A2, especially if A2 would have donned 2B's dress in honor of her memory or something like that.

[Furystrikez]

Does anyone understand the android naming convention used here?
I always thought that an android's number was who they actually are and the letter was just a job classification. There are a couple of times in the story where androids talk about changing thier jobs to a combat model or something along those lines, I figure they would keep the same number and just change the letter at the end of thier name. So there should only ever be 1 of each number in the Yorha unit. The only exception to this was 2B and A2 but that was kinda explained because A2 was designated a deserter so technically she isn't a part of Yorha anymore. Or with the 2B clones near the end but I'm pretty sure they were all controlled by the same consciousness and didn't think independantly of one another cause they were all crazy.

But then I remember operator 21O talking about how the commander was impressed with 9S' performance and was considering producing more '9S' models. If the theory above was true then they would just be 'S' models with different numbers, but she specifically says '9S models'. So after hearing this it seems like it is possible to have more than 1 of each number existing in the Yorha unit at the same time.

So how do we know who is who if there are multiple 9Ss running around? They should have different names right? Or do the names not really signify anything unique about the consciousness within the android? In which case it is very likely that there could be copies of the same android personalities floating around. I'm pretty sure at one point they said that they used A2's personality data to create 2B because A2 was good at making descisions in combat so it wouldn't be the 1st time they tried this.

[Hued]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Furystrikez:

I'm pretty sure at one point they said that they used A2's personality data to create 2B because A2 was good at making descisions in combat so it wouldn't be the 1st time they tried this.

They did and that's why Anemone confuses her at the initial visit.

[Silmeria]

Generally the memories determines personality and individuality as a whole.

There is one thing I would like to point out is Androids still view destruction of the blackbox as death, and for some reason it seems they don't always or cannot have a backup for them if the current blackbox is active in mission, take the other Androids descended with 2B which are lost during the mission as an instance. The idea of transportation into dummy body that makes the uniqueness of the blackbox questionable for 2B and 9S, though briefly explained in game as That means though memories can be backed up and installed into a new black box, technically the 2B and 9S we played as for the most of time are not the same persons (especially 9S that didn't have his memories transisted to the Bunker so he has no memories of the factory breakthrough, which can be seen it actually triggered 2B's determination in protecting him before her last moments) for the factory operation.

This system seems like the simple solution to ease the dilemma of instances of individuals with same/partially same memories and view themselves as the same person exists at the same time in different places. My personal explanation is since Androids are expendable instruments of war, their personality and memoires are only valuabe for the war effect to the Bunker. When one is destroyed the Bunker simply generates a new one based on the last saved personal data. If a backup is not available, they start new code number and make new androids. It also was mentioned by the masked resistence girl that YoRHa units can no longer restore themselves since the Bunker was destroyed.

As for restored 2B and 9S, they are a completely different persons except they have not same but only the same memories which determines their behavior, in which conseals their emotions towards each other.

[M3chaMike]

Dude, you didn't find a plothole or ruin the game. This is something that is definitely touched on in at least a couple of instances in the game.

Sure, the 9S and 2B that we know might just be multiple "selves" portraying the exact same traits. Meaning, we might be witnessing 9 different characters stories, rather than 3.

I just don't think the game focuses too much on it because it's trying to push specific ideas that the creators had strong opinions about.

The whole idea of cloning and the "true self" has been examined time and time again in this kind of format. There's not really much of an answer you can come up with other than "maybe, maybe not".

The developers wanted to look at what makes humanity. Fear, love, desperation, joy, hate, etc. You see the good and bad of humanity through the game, and I don't think the developers wanted to get distracted by delving into a complicated debate about the "soul".

[Furystrikez]

I'm OK with the thought that their personalities and experiences are merely copied and placed into different bodies. And even that there is a backup of all the personalities saved on a server in the bunker so if you get blown up you can 'respawn' at the bunker. I think it is OK to be able to 'reboot' and android with a bankup of thier memories and experiences so long as there is only 1 active version of those experiances and memories at a time. That way there is only ever one 9S, 2B, A2, ect. and if they die they just go back in time to whenever thier last backup was, which is what 9S does right after the prologue.
Things get weird when you consider there being multiple copies of the same memories active at the same time.
Being that they are ultimately robots and not people I don't think being in different bodies is really significant.