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討論區規矩與守則
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The deeper and deeper I dig into how the story works, the more tragedies in the story mostly seems illogical. I am a great fan of tragedy. They open the eyes to reality and are much more impacting than rosy, happy endings. Yet at times, it seems Yoko Taro includes tragedy that's simply just there. Upon realizing they don't have much of a purpose other than a simply sob story for the sake of it, it loses it impact as a tragedy, and times feels very out of place. I would say Devola and Popola's guilt trip programming is one of several examples.
Regarding the twins treatment...
The people of the "old world" (before events of Nier Replicant/Gestalt) and the Android Command that replaces them are portrayed in a rather negative light. What I mean is that the Hamelin Organization that effectively organized the fight against the White Chlorination Syndrome/Red Eye/Legion were...very Machiavellian to say the least. They experimented on children (Emil and his sister Halua) to make weapons as seen in the Stone Flower short story and somewhat seen in the game itself, lied about the effects of luciferase being preventative medicine, lied to the people that would become the Grimoire's that they would be spared (And Then There Were None short story). And most of all, the Hamelin Organization was directly responsible for Gestalt Yonah getting the Black Scrawl due to handing out copies of Grimoire Noir under the guise of helping refugees in all. What I am getting at is that people of the old world and the "Android Command" that replaced them are...nasty and petty...enough so that they would blame the twins Popola and Devola (all models) for the Project Gestalt failures, even if they weren't really responsible...even if the androids made to bare it weren't even the ones that were involved with it.
As for Gestalt Nier's reaction/rage...some things you said were right, others not.
Gestalt Yonah would be cured when she was reunited with her Replicant body, so I don't know what you mean by never being cured beyond things not happening fast enough for Gestalt Nier's liking. I mean, the threat of the White Chlorination Syndrome/Legion/Red Eye was gone, yet the Androids in charge didn't bother to fuse Grimore Noir/Weiss together immediately to effectively bring humanity back to the world...and Replicants in the meantime were slaughtering Gestalts/Shades left and right. So, Gestalt Nier, who had been waiting over 1000 years to be reunited with his daughter/sister, was annoyed by the wait, so decided to take action himself, which lead to the game's events.
As for Taro...the original Drakengard and onward show how dark he can be. I'm not sure there is much more to say about it. Anyway, that is my two cents.
...
Somewhat unrelated, but...
Also, I'm just surprised that the present day Android Command hasn't killed off the Emil clones (and original Emil if he is even still alone) considering Emil was party ultimately to humanity's death. I guess the final details of how humanity died (involving Replicant Nier and his helpers) was not available...or Android Command had known but thought that Emil died when Popola blew up (he didn't).
I just wanted to ask you specifically about this organization: "Android Command." Might be a bit of a big question, but could you provide all information you know about them? Anything will do. (If you are curious as to why, it is because in a recent thread of mine, Yoko Taro has made the role of this organization extremely unclear and I am currently scavanging for any facts I can find.)
As revealed in Grimoire Noir (the info guide, not the character), Androids were originally put in place to oversee the Gestalt program. This would be a good read.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vEP2iZ52P-DWhQBQ2Is6R8Wjao99AGi0YuWShTvA-tA/mobilebasic
Thus, it is assumed (as in, there isn't really another way to interpret it) that The Hamelin Organization (http://nier.wikia.com/wiki/Hamelin_Organization) that organized the forces that would fight back against the Legion and who organized Project Gestalt is the predecessor and creator of Android Command, which would be necessary since regular people (Gestalts) couldn't survive in the world when it was infected with the White Chlorination Syndrome. Thus, they were supposed to "run" the world while humanity waited for the Maso to be banished from the world. Of course, Project Gestalt failed, humanity died, and Android Command then started the lie Humanity had survived, and created Project Yorha to perpetuate that lie. As Jackass's report obtained by getting Ending E and not deleting explains, apparently they are still around (the Commander is thus not likely to be part of Android Command, considering she, well...died), and a lot of Androids are not going to be happy with them.
That's about what immediately comes to mind.
This is new info. It's not much, but it is new info (yes, this is how desperate I am tro try and understand what Android Command is).
There is a contradiction from the information the community has from official sources so far. Yoko Taro has stated all android forces are equal when calling the shots for the war in his 50 Questions. Meanwhile, Concert Script 2 has stated that Zinna (android that started Project YoRHa) was under the orders of some form of Android Command which was not the Council of Humanity. "Who is this so called Command?" - is the current question at hand. So far, we have so little to work with and we are trying to piece the puzzle all together.
Yes, the humans in charge of Gestal and the experimentations in generalwere ruthless, uncaring, cold, and cruel. Innumerable sacrifices, torture, cruel experimentation occured - that is indeed true, but they saw it as justified because it was humanity's only hope. Hamelin made kids under 10 fight the Legion, for god's sake, and Luciferase doesn't even make you immune to WCS or stop the infection - it just slows it in younger people.
However, we do have to keep in mind that their work was quite literally the only possible way for humanity to survive.
The Androids WOULD have started the process soon before the game's events, were it not the steep increase of relapssing caused by the Shadowlord going increasingly berserk, and later, Nier slapping Weiss' memories out of him. Popola alludes to another generation of Replicants or so, and they might have begun the process, but...
The ones who created Emil and Halua were NOT Hamelin. Hamelin were responsible for the Crusades. Emil and Halua were created by Code Purple, the Japanese weapon research laboratory founded in secret, as a response to Hamelin's increasing power/influence.
Regardless who the "Android command" are, or were, there is zero reason to scapegoat fellow Androids that had nothing to do with the failure of the project, especially when even the original overseers weren't at fault, either.
I'm sure he had something in mind, but I really can't figure out what it was. Nobody hated Devola and Popola, and nobody who played through to the very end even blamed them for anything. Nier himself BEGS Popola to stop, it breaks his heart to fight her. It broke my heart, too. THe only person in the world who she had by her side for all the 1300 years, bearing the weight of human survival, gone. They were already tragic figures, I don't get why they hadto get dragged through the mud and spat upon even further in Automata...
It's true that the twins were never seen as outcasts in game. However, sources[twinfinite.net] have stated they suffered from verbal and even physical abuse from other androids. Perhaps the Resistance Camp was a safe haven for them were people such as Anemone accepted them as one of her own. The log that showed their past where they were stranded, I would have to reread it for more details. However, it seems they were stranded because no one accepted them. They were even rigged to feel extreme guilt. Whoever created them after the events of NieR:Gestalt probably felt the Devola and Popola lineage should be scapegoats.
Should have clarified, nobody in the playerbase, or the original cast of NieR (that we know of) hated the original Devola and Popola "Our" Devola and Popola had a completely horrible life, just because someone decided to take it out on them. Physical and mental abuse, along with that extreme guilt by default, their existence was hell. Even in the Resistance camp, they are given the most dangerous jobs, and it is like they just secretly want them to die or get seriously injured..
I just don't understand why Taro put them through all this, what was the point, and why were we made to believe Original D/P were guilty of "failing" the GP.
Could it be to make the rest of the androids seem more humans through their actions? After all their actions against the P/D models reminds us a lot about mob mentality among humans and our need to blame someone for what happens, even if said individual isn't really responsible.
"You might not be directly responsible, but your inaction caused this all to happen!"
What follows are basically normal human racism applied to two models instead of a whole race.
I guess it's one way to look at it. Androids in the game are "human" to a fault, and it's saddening, really. ironically, they are far more like their beloved humans than they realize, in all the wrong ways, and the machine lifeforms that they despise so much showcase many of the qualities that androids admire the humans for, but the propaganda just doesn't let them question it all.
You could also make the argument that the Android governing body needed a scapegoat to mnimize the panic around Project Gestalt failing, and to limit the possibility of other androids finding out the truth behind what happened, and therefore reaching to the conclusion that humans are definitely extinct already.
Now, this would lave us with the question of WHO that android governing body is comprised of, who built them, and why, but that's another topic, I guess.
Well, I learned some stuff from your post. Specifically, I was not aware that Code Purple were the ones who made Emil and Halua the way they were (and they were created by an organization that was actually a rival of the Hamelin Organization). Nice catch. Also, I didn't know you were referencing the Replicants gaining consciousness as the reason for the failure... It certainly is another way of looking at it...although I would imagine new generation replicant bodies or bodies that actually could undergo reproduction (IIRC the replicant bodies are sterile) could be developed again that were sentient.
However, Hamelin was in charge of Project Gestalt...at least as long as humans were in control of it persay. http://nier.wikia.com/wiki/Hamelin_Organization
Their work combating the legion and the World Purification Organization you already mentioned.
Also, I understand that to a certain degree the Hamelin Organizations Actions were...needed. I used the word Machiavellian on purpose...as in to do good...you must do bad. Granted, they continuously lied to just about everyone (the public about their research, they claimed Luciferase was a vaccine when all it did was slow down the progression of the White Chlorination Syndrome, they lied to the people that were soon to become the Grimoire).
Most importantly, their biggest deceipt was handing out the Grimoire Noir copies that both the Gestalt Nier and Yonah got that resulted in Yonah getting something akin to the Black Scrawl after she wished for a cookie... Since the Hamelin Organization needed a "self-awareness-maintaining Gestalt" that wouldn't relapse for Project Gestalt to be a success. If you want the proof of this look at Grimoire Noir here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vEP2iZ52P-DWhQBQ2Is6R8Wjao99AGi0YuWShTvA-tA/mobilebasic
and do a control find on "2049 - Father Nier is Gestaltized". So Yonah was Gestaltized and relapsed almost immediately... Then...as Grimore Noir says...
"""The Hamelin Organization contacts Nier, convincing him that in a thousand years, the sickness will be gone, and to place Yonah in cryogenic sleep. In exchange for putting Yonah into "cold sleep" for 1000 years, they demand "maso" (the kind that can keep Gestalts self-aware) from Nier.
Nier accepts the offer from the World Purification Organization, and begins providing "maso" as an "Original Gestalt"."""
So the Hamelin Organization caused Yonah to become...more sick (she had something else apparantly before), and then offered to fix what they caused in return for Nier's cooperation...a raw deal, but...
The point was even if what they did was necessary, I feel there methods were cruel and potentially even counterproductive... They were also petty (a trait likely picked up by Android Command which the Hamelin Organization likely created), which ties into why Popola/Devola got the treatment they got when Project Gestalt failed.
Yeah, of course I am aware of the "mass-produced" Noir clones, part of the desperate searcdh for a Gestalt that can preserve its consciousness. Arguably one of their worst and sleeziest moves. That, and taking over the "Code Purple" secret lab with force, and killing tons of their own men under Tyrann while defending human Kaine's grandparents.
About Yonah, that's what I thought. She was already sick with something, and the Gestaltization process gave her the "scrawl". Perhaps if the body is too weak/damaged by a severe illness, the Gestalt process cannot go normally? Who knows. At any rate, G.Nier had no choice but to take the deal, as crappy as it was. It was Yonah's only chance to survive, after all. This is obvious.If only he had known they were likely lying to him yet again.
As for Replicant reproduction, I don't think it's possible - certainly not within the parameters of the Gestalt Project, anyway. Replicants have "children", but those "children"are grown in vats by Devola/Popola and then the "parents" are called, somehow incapacitated, and given the Replicant child. A replicant being able to reproduce would completely destroy the Project, because then they would produce their own DNA, which means that the connection to the Gestalts would be severed in their offspring, and likely in the parents as well.
The Gestalt Project failure was a multi-tier issue, in my opinion, and it was the perfect storm of:
1.Relying on just ONE, "Original Gestalt" to provide Maso to stabilize the dormant Gestalts. (while he was doing so, replicants and likely androids cleansed the world of Maso completely)
2. Picking random people to forcibly Gestaltize.
3. Infecting Yonah (albeit likely not purposely, she was just in an area where fake Noirs were deployed)
4. Lying and manipulating the one person who holds everything together.
5. Not having a failsafe for the Weiss/Noir connection. (Though this is debatable, the Forest of Myth quantum supercomputer/organic hybrid seems to have SOME sort of backup plan to restart the ENTIRE Replicant producing process, at least in some capacity)
6. Not accounting for genetic defects.
7. Not accounting for the Gestalts' strong connection to the Original in a timely fashion.
8. Never having taken precautions for relapses as a possibility.
And likely, worst of all, 9. Never having accounted for the fact that, by sheer chance, and by their "human" nature, Replicants are very likely to develop some form of intelligence that rapidly evolves to normal human intelligence, therefore shutting down the idea of merging with the respective Gestalt.
It's still very muddy when it comes to D/P, because the originals, the ones they COULD mark as responsible for the failure, were dead. They really had no possible course of action, because all of the issues that arose were, really, Hamelin's fault. I really cannot think of anything they, or any other observer, COULD have done after G.Nier went berserk and kidnapped R. Yonah. They cannot just "create" new genetic material to create new, empty Replicants the Gestalts can inhabit, because they would have no genetic connection to them. It is unknown whether A gestalt that already HAS a body can inhabit another,"empty" body. If we assume Tyrann still HAS a corresponding Replicant somewhere, then he ist he only such case.
I guess we can just say that the "descendants" of Hamelin just initiated a massive smear campaign, just to shift the blame for the failure off of the true culprit, and every iteration of Devola and Popola had to suffer for it. Humans make me sick sometimes..
"I guess we can just say that the "descendants" of Hamelin just initiated a massive smear campaign, just to shift the blame for the failure off of the true culprit, and every iteration of Devola and Popola had to suffer for it. Humans make me sick sometimes.."
You pretty much hit the nail on the head what I was getting at.
Also...
Regarding replicants and Tyrann by the way, this might be worth a read. It doesn't mention Kaine's grandparents getting killed by him (where did you get that), but it does explain a lot.
http://nier.wikia.com/wiki/Tyrann
Condensing it, only select individuals were chosen to go through the Gestalt Process and get a corresponding replicant. This is due to how expensive it was. So...an individual by the name of Yura Masayoshi changed his name to Tyrann to be selected. Tyrann's deception was discovered and his replicant was destroyed by the military. He then decided to take over other people's replicants till he finds Replicant Kaine in Nier. The point is though that a Gestalt doesn't necessarily have to be connected to a Replicant to take over...which suggests if empty replicants could be created, Gestalts could take them over. Whether they could be created or not...well, they weren't obviously.
As for some questions...
What confuses me though is whether a partially relapsed gestalt taking over a Replicant (Yonah's situation) actually stops the gestalt relapsing or not. Basically, was Gestalt Yonah cured of the relapsing after she went into her replicant body? Five years later and she appeared fine, so I guess yes... But despite replicants and gestalts successfully fusing in places where androids were in control as Grimoire Noir discussed, Gestalt Nier's loss ended humanity still... This suggests that even after fusing of replicants and gestalts takes place, this is only stable as long as Gestalt Nier is around to provide maso...
This leads to another important question... Was the replicant/gestalt fusing process meant to be one step in a chain of events to get humanity back to the point...reproduction was possible? As you explained (I was already aware), replicants are "sterile". Just spanning replicants endlessly doesn't really achieve bringing humanity back in any "desirable" fashion. Looking through Grimoire Noir and other sources, I can't find anything on this... Does anyone know anything about this?
Yes, whileTyrann takes over multiple Replicants, they were all created in the same way - with genetic data from their corresponding Gestalts. You can make an adroid body (though that would likely be even more expensive than the Replicants, unknown), but there is no way to magically create new DNA for a "human" being, and since the Gestalt is the "soul", it seems like the Replicant body can't be just a lump of meat - it has to be an actual, functioning one for the Gestalt to merge with it. There is honestly little info about that, as well as the successful merges. However, you could theorize that, due to the limited number of Gestalt/Replicant combos, the few successful ones might have been killed, or rejected over time, which seems very plausible, given that the Replicants are basically "humans" already. The rejection might have triggered a relapse, and... we know how that ends.
Yonah appears fine, but she is still sickly and weak, still bed-ridden. I think she was still stick - possibly because her Replicant body kept trying to "reject" the Gestalt?
This is unknown, we can only speculate. She was clearly in anguish, though, she could bear it no longer, and the cries of Replicant Yonah hurt her a lot as well.
I don't think the GP's end-game still depended on the Shadowlord giving off maso, though - after all, he was supposed to reunite with his Yonah and fuse with his own Replicant, which, wouldn't that make him just a human being again? Unknown.
This brings up the biggest problem you cover, the fact that even if everything went to plan, the Replicant bodies are still sterile, meaning that humanity was STILL doomed. We can theorize that Hamelin and the Overseers had some kind of plan to get rid of the sterility in time. It is also possible that bringing the "soul" back to a corresponding body is how the sterility problem is solved, as it also contains the original DNA, therefore letting the Replicant body produce new DNA and create offspring. Popola says something to the extent of "We don't have souls, but our tears still work..." As these emotions are decidedly "human" in nature, and Gestalts are the souls of humans, this might lend credence to the fact that a SUCCESSFUL merge would mean a healthy, normal human being in every possible way.. Or at least, that was the plan.
It is also possible that they did intend, as you said, to keep producing Replicants, but I think that is the least likely option.