Base Building

[dbox123]

Building a base now in 0.8.5 has become extremely tedious, the number of resources you need to collect is so vast that for many it just consumes all your time. What contributes to this feeling the most is that undertaking these upgrades does not offer a significant increase to the amount of protection the base has, relative to the amount of effort you need to put in to upgrade it, it just seems like wasted time. As each update comes it seems to become more and more time consuming to build, were as the methods for raiding have been significantly increased, the addition of RPGs, TNT and what used to be defensive items like the pipe bombs and frag grenades, now being taken away and repurposed for the use of raiding.

Raiding is an integral part of the game, and although this isn’t about raiding, they do go hand in hand. If upgrading a base becomes tedious and ends up consuming a significant proportion of a players game time, when the inevitable raid happens the motivation to repair and rebuild isn’t there, players just quit.

There is now a significant variety to the number of methods you can use to raid a base, from a wide range of explosives to legitimate ways of flying over the top of a wall, plus exploits not being addressed like the farming of keycards or using arrows to destroy walls. Private servers that have changed base building like RKG, which has base damage turned off for two weeks at a time, have become very popular, the Scum League servers have also introduced grace periods at the start, weekly and mid-season, where base damage is again turned off, thus allowing people to build something before raiding is enabled again. These are extreme measures, and the game shouldn’t be like this.

The best balance the game had was right before the new walls got added. Lots of changes were made over the previous years to balance building vs raiding, and the game was in a great place. The amount of time you needed to invest to build a base compared to the amount of time you had to spend collecting raid material (claymores and screwdrivers) was well balanced.

Using the walls as an example. Before the upgrade system was added if you had advanced engineering, you were able to build the highest tier walls straight away, unlike the new system, which no matter your skill level, you are forced to build all five stages for every element. The wall with the highest health was the advanced window fortification, this had 3300 health and the resources needed to build it was 3 logs, 3 metal and 20 uses of a toolbox. Compared to the new walls these equate to about one third of a five-meter section of wall, so three are needed as a comparison.

The only way to protect a base is layers, a small base, say 15mts x 15mtrs with two layers of walls upgraded to the highest level, this is obviously not enough to stop someone raiding, but for a small team who want to build a base, just two layers of wall upgraded to the highest tier should be reasonably easy to achieve early in the game. This would act as a good compound to store some items and start building some of the modular elements, build a garden or to start adding more layers.

However, the materials needed to build just two squares 15x15mtrs in concrete is as follows:
984 sticks, 312 planks, 1848 metal, 3192 toolbox uses, 360 nails, 336 barbed wire, 1008 water, 1176 bricks, 1512 cement, 3024 gravel, 4536 sandbags uses.
That is a phenomenal number of materials just for two layers of wall, which only give a maximum health of 2450 each. (Total 4900)

Compared to the original palisades building the same would have been 108 logs, 108 metal, 108 bolts and 720 toolbox uses, plus they would have given more health at 3300 each. (Total 6600) If a team wanted to raid that compound, they would have had to go out and loot around 22 claymores (@300dmg each), a base builder could have looted the materials needed and build those walls before an opposition team could have collected enough materials to raid it. This is how it should be, but the game seems to have done a complete 180, making it increasingly harder to build while making raid materials more accessible. Raiding should not be impossible, but the balance should always be in favour of players who decide to build. If it isn’t advantageous to build a base, or fun, then nobody will do it.

If you want to build a base now all your time is spent collecting materials just so you can upgrade it.

The current meta in game is to upgrade your exterior walls to brick and the modular walls to metal. Because two C4 can take down a brick wall, there is no point in upgrading any walls to concrete as the only additional materials a raider needs to add, to drop a 5mtr section of concrete wall, is two pipe bombs. But for a base owner to upgrade one layer of wall (as mentions above) from brick to concrete they would need to collect 504 metal, 504 toolbox uses, 336 water, 504 cement, 1008 gravel, and 1512 sand.

The foundations for the modular elements have the same health as the modular walls, although when fully upgraded they have lower health than the exterior walls. A fully upgraded concrete foundation can be dropped with two C4, and with it being exposed upgrading elements that sit on top of this is a waste of time.

There seems to be a growing imbalance to how long it takes to build relative to the protection that upgrading a base offers. If you want a base that offers reasonable protection you have to commit all your time to building it. If base building is to be a long process, and time consuming for players, then the health of the upgraded elements need to be significantly increased, It shouldn’t be quicker to collect materials to destroy an element than it is to upgrade a section of the base.

Or alternatively, if raiding materials are going to become more commonplace, please lower the number of materials that are needed to upgrade so that building takes less time, making it initially easier to build, and then repair when raided, will just improve the gameplay.

Or just add a crumpet recipe, Milk, Yeast, Sugar, Flour, plus some butter and BOOM crumpets.

[Prince of Jerusalem]

Yep it sucks balls.

[Muut]

Only playing SP so can't comment on raiding, but just to say:

Originally posted by dbox123:

Or just add a crumpet recipe, Milk, Yeast, Sugar, Flour, plus some butter and BOOM crumpets.

Seconded.

(But, suggestion anyway - when base part gets blown up, converts to blueprint visible to the owner, then with reduced materials to rebuild it as-was? Sounds like it still needs a bit more fortitude against explosives though.)

[fatesdeath]

LOL
but the lockpickers
Don't have an advantage
RIIIIIIGHT RIIIIIGHT, lmfao i made a whole thing about this
but this is the SAME thing just towards mats

[XioN]

facts.

[InDaZone]

100% concur.

Like dbox123 I have always enjoyed building and defending bases. Even more so as a solo player. The challenge is what kept me coming back for more. But base building is currently not worth the effort, and that's a big understatement. I don't mind putting in the work. I enjoy grinding away if I can see a reward at the end of the tunnel. But the amount of work needed to build and upgrade walls doesn't give you an equivalent amount of security.

This is what my SCUM life has been like the last couple weeks as a solo player:
After the 0.85 patch on US EAST #3, I could not store building materials/loot without my boxes being found a couple days later. There seemed to be a huge influx of hackers right after the update. But I didn't quit. I decided to move to the most dead area of the map and try again. I spent two weeks traveling multiple sectors nonstop on foot to gather enough build materials to try and fortify a building... with JUST METAL DOORS. In that time I found enough demolition items (rocket launcher, rpg's) to destroy the simple fortification that I wanted to build. So i'm already thinking, what's the point? (Then the box with my build materials vanished putting me back at zero. But that's besides the point.)

Without proper balancing, I have little to no interest in the modular base system. As dbox pointed out the foundations are a glaring issue. I can spend countless hours gathering resources to upgrade a foundation and its 4 walls to brick. Each wall takes two c4 to destroy, but ALL OF IT can be destroyed with 2 c4 on the foundation. So I need to protect my foundations with layers of walls and then upgrade those layers, which obviously costs more base elements and a lot more time and resources. It also makes even less sense to spend time upgrading to concrete walls since it only takes 2 C4 to destroy those after just a couple days of decay time. It's cool that you can build 2 and 3 story structures but like I've said in the past, why spend the time setting a table if someone is going to just pull out the table cloth?

There are different levels of survival I'm willing to accept. I don't need to have a big beautiful base. But the question is, is the juice worth the squeeze? Am I having fun? I'm currently living out of a bush thinking, "why should I spend another month attempting to build a base? Maybe I should just collect resources to raid a squad? But my bush only has so much space to store their loot... "

dbox123 is THE BEST base builder in SCUM that I'm aware of. He's good because he's also adept at raiding bases. If the devs are going to listen to someone, it should be him.

MY BASE
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2993168031

[MeanStreak]

Amen

[[Kartell]Captain Data]

Not playing MP and therefore lacking the knowledge of "making a base raid-secure".

In a way I like it takes time to set up camp. It's okay you need a ton of resources for a small house, after all, you DO need a ton of materials for a house IRL! Give it a try and build a small log hut all by yourself and you'll end with a multiple weeks long project, if you can even pull of that stunt. I'm quite happy I can use a basic stone axe to make planks and NOT being required to have a worker's bench first.

My gripe with the system is less about the amount of resources or time spent on base building: singleplayer experience differs massively from multiplayer gameplay. In MP, you can bring friends and set up camp much faster if everyone does his or her part.
It's actually the experience gain that nearly kills the game. A lot of useful stuff is locked behind higher levels than you're expected to have at the beginning of the game, that's double true in case you created a character geared towards puppet killing and survival with less points in "Intelligence" and therefore less points available for things like "Building".

In my case, my character started with basic knowledge. The work bench I mentioned earlier however is locked behind "medium" tier. Even after setting up a two-store log hut, using up 200 logs of wood or something, even after building several furnitures etc, skill progression is well below 50% of what I need to get medium tier. What am I supposed to build for no other purposes than increasing my skill so I can build more useful stuff?

Again: skill progression is way, way too slow in this game. It is supposed to be "realistic". But if I have the skill to build a house, beds, cupboards, trunks and even more complex weapons, I wonder why I can't build a work bench or why I'm unable to build a battery charging station that doesn't require much more than a trunk, a battery and a set of cables.

[johnthepatriot]

Didn't they take away player-made sharpening stones for precisely the reason that they made raiding too easy? I even kept a few on a savegame awhile back before an update broke it. I want my sharpening stones back.

PS: I'd sure appreciate it if anyone could respond to my cooking question... need to know if it's a bug or if I'm just an ID-10T.

[Neon Robot]

I've been playing SP since I got the game and at least for me, I decided to do on my first playthrough a modular base to see what you could do for fun and honestly, not really worth it. Building a base takes so much time and materials you basically have to stop doing everything just to spend all your time focusing on the base. I can't imagine trying to do this on a server with other people who can then walk up and annihilate it.

They're really overemphasizing the realism.

[insettoinfetto]

Originally posted by dbox123:

Raiding is an integral part of the game, and although this isn’t about raiding, they do go hand in hand.

It is not. It's for a small amount of players.
For sure it's interesting as long as squads stockpile loot or cash....

Originally posted by dbox123:

The best balance the game had was right before the new walls got added.

No, the deep change in raiding was the add of traders.
Before you need to spend time to collect resources. Now you just buy them in 5 mins.
You wrote the same when talking about resources and claymores....

Originally posted by dbox123:

Raiding should not be impossible, but the balance should always be in favour of players who decide to build. If it isn’t advantageous to build a base, or fun, then nobody will do it.
..
If you want a base that offers reasonable protection you have to commit all your time to building it.

First if breaching into a base is hard, nobody will do that. Only the strongest team on a server. That with raiding it will become stronger and stronger. Making other team leaving the server.

Second, tell me one reason to build a strong base, hard to raid.
Don't say loot, you can bury it, or convert it to cash and buy stuff when you need it.

That's the point.
Why should I build a strong base?

[insettoinfetto]

Originally posted by InDaZone:

But the amount of work needed to build and upgrade walls doesn't give you an equivalent amount of security.

But the question is, is the juice worth the squeeze? Am I having fun?

I pointed out 1 year ago that bases should not be gigantic chests....
THAT IS THE MAIN FLAW of base building now. It is tight to raiding. It should not.

Bases could have a different meanings.
And....

Originally posted by InDaZone:

I'm currently living out of a bush thinking, "why should I spend another month attempting to build a base? Maybe I should just collect resources to raid a squad? But my bush only has so much space to store their loot... "

MY BASE
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2993168031

I suggested too that bases should be of 2 kind.
One visible but with defenses.
Another one hidden, with no defenses.

I don't see the reason for the first one as I can store loot in chests and bury them.
I did that EVEN when I built a base.

Devs should decide if we should play the capture the base game or not.
Most players will be nomad and they do not need to establish a base.
I got a life and don't want to spend time to build a base....did that so I know the time it require.

[[p][u][n] ☕]

The current base building is perfect because it will give you ample time to realize that, in fact, there isn't anything to do in the game other than "survive" against other players. For PVE you can survive on 1/2 loot spawn rate. It just takes more time is all.

I'm not being snide. Look, play it out in your head; once you build a house and put all your crap inside of it... then what? What happens? Zombies don't change. They don't raid you. Everything is exactly the same except you have a big hole to dump all the crap you don't even need. Players might raid you, and they'll do it offline so you can't stop them. All you have is a more spacious storage box.

Sorry pve players, ya'll aren't gonna get it better than it is now. The one PVE feature they touched on in a very long time (mechs) was the one thing that a lot of servers turn off, let that settle in. Gonna have to wait 2 years before you'll see new PVE enemies, and maybe never for ones that actually roam the map and shoot back.

[Muut]

Originally posted by KartellCaptain Data:

In a way I like it takes time to set up camp. It's okay you need a ton of resources for a small house, after all, you DO need a ton of materials for a house IRL! Give it a try and build a small log hut all by yourself and you'll end with a multiple weeks long project, if you can even pull of that stunt. I'm quite happy I can use a basic stone axe to make planks and NOT being required to have a worker's bench first.

Agree for SP. It's ok that it's a major effort, makes you consider carefully what you want to build and where, then explore the map to gather tools and materials etc, and you only have to do that once unless you want to have multiple bases.

(It's maybe kind of weird that to build a metal shack you have to build a log cabin first, for which you're rewarded with bigger numbers on the pieces, but it is what it is ;)

Can see how it would get old if you have to keep doing it over and over to somebody else's schedule though.

[MeanStreak]

Originally posted by insettoinfetto:

Originally posted by dbox123:

Raiding is an integral part of the game, and although this isn’t about raiding, they do go hand in hand.

It is not. It's for a small amount of players.
For sure it's interesting as long as squads stockpile loot or cash....

Originally posted by dbox123:

The best balance the game had was right before the new walls got added.

No, the deep change in raiding was the add of traders.
Before you need to spend time to collect resources. Now you just buy them in 5 mins.
You wrote the same when talking about resources and claymores....

Originally posted by dbox123:

Raiding should not be impossible, but the balance should always be in favour of players who decide to build. If it isn’t advantageous to build a base, or fun, then nobody will do it.
..
If you want a base that offers reasonable protection you have to commit all your time to building it.

First if breaching into a base is hard, nobody will do that. Only the strongest team on a server. That with raiding it will become stronger and stronger. Making other team leaving the server.

Second, tell me one reason to build a strong base, hard to raid.
Don't say loot, you can bury it, or convert it to cash and buy stuff when you need it.

That's the point.
Why should I build a strong base?

Dbox knows what he's talking about. You obviously don't, reading your comments.

[Siamese]

On a side note.
You could just revert to building without the modular elements and just use wall sections.