Why so much developer hate for bots and other fan made content?

[WarderBrad]

I am having trouble understanding the moves the developers make to try and make the bot unusable.
The reasons I have heard are things like "it is not the way the game is supposed to be played" or "it ruins the survival aspect" and other such comments. The thing is that all the really good games out there are ones that don't try and tell you how you have to play the game. Plus any fan made plug-ins or add-ons only work if the game is still being played. So that means the game stays active and likely making money. From a business side of things it makes no sense.

[ENOWONMAI]

From what they said in previous discussions, they first want to finish the game and implement all the systems and assets. And two, something something security excuse we can;t release the files.

[CrankyOldMan]

Read the last sentence!
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
LevaOpaki [developer] May 26, 2021 @ 7:40am
Originally posted by DeepDish:
"Revenue share
If you haven’t considered private servers before, the following should spike your interest: as a studio, you can earn revenue from players playing your game on our servers. Generally, we need to be your preferred private-server host for this to happen. Contact us for more info!"

"Private servers don’t cost studios money; they save money - in fact they can actually make money” - Roberto Omezzolli GPORTAL CEO

"We’ve already discussed that private game servers do not cost game studios any money, however we haven’t mentioned that at GPORTAL private game servers can also be a source of revenue. It is called a license share program, where we pay game studios money for players playing the game studio’s game on our servers. This is part of the agreement mentioned earlier, where GPORTAL host the official/dedicated servers and all we ask is that our logo is incorporated into the game in some way."

Gamepires had an exclusivity contract with GPORTAL upon Early Access release.

We never had contract with them for revenue share. We never made cent on server files. Just exclusive hosting to minimize work for the team while we where small. Now we are bigger team and exclusivity is not in place any more. We have 4 different host-ers at this moment. We still control access to server files to minimize hacking and pirate version of the servers files.

[Siamese]

Originally posted by Recondite:

Originally posted by CrankyOldMan:

"We still control access to server files to minimize hacking and pirate version of the servers files."

...Regardless, their reasons are their own and they have no obligation to tell us what those reasons are -....

Ya nailed it.

[Siamese]

See now when i see "plug-in" i don't hear the same thing as bot. When i hear bot i think of bot-shops of which there is no shortage but plug-in's are usually a word used to in place of hacks. So if that's your angle you can take a hike.

[MeanStreak]

Originally posted by Siamese:

See now when i see "plug-in" i don't hear the same thing as bot. When i hear bot i think of bot-shops of which there is no shortage but plug-in's are usually a word used to in place of hacks. So if that's your angle you can take a hike.

with bots like Whalley bot you forget one thing. It's not only so called "bot shops". The free version is a tremendous help for private server admins to have the server logs sorted in a readable way. I get the all the admin logs to the admin section on my discord. One channel each for kill logs, login logs, lockpicking logs etc all sorted in a very nice readable format.
The bots are not all about shops

[Siamese]

Originally posted by MeanStreak:

Originally posted by Siamese:

See now when i see "plug-in" i don't hear the same thing as bot. When i hear bot i think of bot-shops of which there is no shortage but plug-in's are usually a word used to in place of hacks. So if that's your angle you can take a hike.

with bots like Whalley bot you forget one thing. It's not only so called "bot shops". The free version is a tremendous help for private server admins to have the server logs sorted in a readable way. I get the all the admin logs to the admin section on my discord. One channel each for kill logs, login logs, lockpicking logs etc all sorted in a very nice readable format.
The bots are not all about shops

I'm not questioning that at all. I suspect that isn't what the OP is referring to as obviously that is allowed.
I'm questioning the OPs desire to run "plug-ins" which is a common synonym for hacking programs.

[xKiCkx]

Originally posted by WarderBrad:

I am having trouble understanding the moves the developers make to try and make the bot unusable.
The reasons I have heard are things like "it is not the way the game is supposed to be played" or "it ruins the survival aspect" and other such comments. The thing is that all the really good games out there are ones that don't try and tell you how you have to play the game. Plus any fan made plug-ins or add-ons only work if the game is still being played. So that means the game stays active and likely making money. From a business side of things it makes no sense.

Can you please explain what brought you to the conclusion that we hate bots and fan made content?

[WarderBrad]

Originally posted by Siamese:

See now when i see "plug-in" i don't hear the same thing as bot. When i hear bot i think of bot-shops of which there is no shortage but plug-in's are usually a word used to in place of hacks. So if that's your angle you can take a hike.

I was referring to UI modifications (moving things from one area to another which is more useful for individual players for example). Maybe a plugin that shows your stomach, intestine, colon and bladder states so you don't have to open the menu. Same for stats or skills to tell if what you are doing is improving what you want.
Those kinds of things.
As for cheats, I am not suggesting anything that would give another player an advantage. I mean if someone made a aiming mod, how would that be different to all the ways that people have overcome the issue with basic bows using outside stuff (tape dot on screen, programs to put a reticule in the center of the screen. Etc).

[WarderBrad]

Originally posted by xKiCkx:

Can you please explain what brought you to the conclusion that we hate bots and fan made content?

First it is the transparency of access. While not asking for engine access or other core details it should be possible to put out a method of interacting with the game at a program level. I can see someone saying "it is too early for that kind of access with the way things are changing" and that is a point but isn't that a "risk" that a programmer of a addin/bot would be taking in trying to write something to interface with the game.

Add to that the obvious efforts to make bots less effective and sometimes unusable. Things like the bot getting booted or not being able to connect at all.

It seems to me that there could be (my programming experience is with VB so I will use terms which I know) named variables and called routines which are universal to the code. Making it so that if you want to do XYZ then you would use the variable and even if the code changes where that is handled or the methods it uses it would still work. And putting out a document to elaborate on those is likely already in place for your programmers. I am sure that a edited version which protects the copyright-able elements could be released.

The fact that there isn't a document and the changes that we have seen in regards to bots leads to the only conclusion that there is a concerted effort to prevent anyone from altering the game play at all.

If a server wants to be put out which the whole map is PvE except for specified zones it would be very different from what it is now but would be just as viable and should be available. Not everyone is going to want to play the game the way most others would. I for one don't like PvP, I find that stuff moves too fast and I can't keep up. But against the husks and animals there is a sense of expect-ability which allows me to keep up. If I had the option to make a server which acted like this then I would.

From a story perspective it would make more sense to have concentrated areas which are monitored and streamed to fans rather than having flying camera hoping to find the action.

If it isn't the intention of the developers to prevent and circumvent the things that players try and make for the game how about a statement about this issue. Or better action in the form of the aforementioned documentation.

[WarderBrad]

Originally posted by Siamese:

Originally posted by Recondite:

...Regardless, their reasons are their own and they have no obligation to tell us what those reasons are -....

Ya nailed it.

You are right that they have no obligation. It is after all their game to make. However, we have seen games in the past take this position and seen just how much of a flash in the pan they were. Here today and gone tomorrow. If they want to have the staying power of WoW or Guild Wars then like those there needs to be the option open.

Even EVE which is the most restrictive I know of allows for some player made tools. Their reason is because there are not multiple servers so "changing the sandbox rules" is not an option. With the ability to have multiple player ran servers there is no business reason to keep it so closed.

You say they have no obligation to tell us anything. The flip side of that is they are under no obligation to keep it silent either. Speaking up on these issues shows goodwill to the fan base.

[oynlengeymer]

Originally posted by xKiCkx:

Originally posted by WarderBrad:

I am having trouble understanding the moves the developers make to try and make the bot unusable.
The reasons I have heard are things like "it is not the way the game is supposed to be played" or "it ruins the survival aspect" and other such comments. The thing is that all the really good games out there are ones that don't try and tell you how you have to play the game. Plus any fan made plug-ins or add-ons only work if the game is still being played. So that means the game stays active and likely making money. From a business side of things it makes no sense.

Can you please explain what brought you to the conclusion that we hate bots and fan made content?

hats off to devs. i could not keep cool like you guys.

[Siamese]

Originally posted by WarderBrad:

Originally posted by Siamese:

See now when i see "plug-in" i don't hear the same thing as bot. When i hear bot i think of bot-shops of which there is no shortage but plug-in's are usually a word used to in place of hacks. So if that's your angle you can take a hike.

I was referring to UI modifications (moving things from one area to another which is more useful for individual players for example). Maybe a plugin that shows your stomach, intestine, colon and bladder states so you don't have to open the menu. Same for stats or skills to tell if what you are doing is improving what you want.
Those kinds of things.
As for cheats, I am not suggesting anything that would give another player an advantage. I mean if someone made a aiming mod, how would that be different to all the ways that people have overcome the issue with basic bows using outside stuff (tape dot on screen, programs to put a reticule in the center of the screen. Etc).

It wouldn't be different in that it would still be cheating. The difference would be in the ability to detect and punish the use of it.
I can't speak for scum but many games don't allow the kinds of plug ins you are talking about (meta data) because it creates lag in the game. Given SCUM already has no shortage of lag and de-sync I'd be surprised if they felt it was a good idea to permit systems that would bring more of it into the game.

[Siamese]

Originally posted by WarderBrad:

Originally posted by Siamese:

Ya nailed it.

You are right that they have no obligation. It is after all their game to make. However, we have seen games in the past take this position and seen just how much of a flash in the pan they were. Here today and gone tomorrow. If they want to have the staying power of WoW or Guild Wars then like those there needs to be the option open.

Even EVE which is the most restrictive I know of allows for some player made tools. Their reason is because there are not multiple servers so "changing the sandbox rules" is not an option. With the ability to have multiple player ran servers there is no business reason to keep it so closed.

You say they have no obligation to tell us anything. The flip side of that is they are under no obligation to keep it silent either. Speaking up on these issues shows goodwill to the fan base.

Sighting wow and guild wars as examples where plug-in support lengthened the life of a game isn't a strong argument. Both of those games have a lot of things going for them that have no relation to player created mods. I could point to Destiny as an example with a long life that doesn't allow mods or plug-ins of any sort whatsoever. It doesn't seem to be hurting them. In the end all three of these examples are great games on their own merits hence their continued success.

Keeping silent on the topic optimizes for their (devs) freedom to decide without making suggestions for people to run with and draw their own conclusions. It's just easier to say nothing than to say something definitive. Especially at this stage in development.

I've seen the argument that people make that opening to mods can actually assist with game development and that may be the case in some situations. However, there is also a risk of the development getting muddied through a flood of concepts that bare no relation to the game. There's no financial interest gained either.

[xKiCkx]

Originally posted by WarderBrad:

Originally posted by xKiCkx:

Can you please explain what brought you to the conclusion that we hate bots and fan made content?

First it is the transparency of access. While not asking for engine access or other core details it should be possible to put out a method of interacting with the game at a program level. I can see someone saying "it is too early for that kind of access with the way things are changing" and that is a point but isn't that a "risk" that a programmer of a addin/bot would be taking in trying to write something to interface with the game.

Add to that the obvious efforts to make bots less effective and sometimes unusable. Things like the bot getting booted or not being able to connect at all.

It seems to me that there could be (my programming experience is with VB so I will use terms which I know) named variables and called routines which are universal to the code. Making it so that if you want to do XYZ then you would use the variable and even if the code changes where that is handled or the methods it uses it would still work. And putting out a document to elaborate on those is likely already in place for your programmers. I am sure that a edited version which protects the copyright-able elements could be released.

The fact that there isn't a document and the changes that we have seen in regards to bots leads to the only conclusion that there is a concerted effort to prevent anyone from altering the game play at all.

If a server wants to be put out which the whole map is PvE except for specified zones it would be very different from what it is now but would be just as viable and should be available. Not everyone is going to want to play the game the way most others would. I for one don't like PvP, I find that stuff moves too fast and I can't keep up. But against the husks and animals there is a sense of expect-ability which allows me to keep up. If I had the option to make a server which acted like this then I would.

From a story perspective it would make more sense to have concentrated areas which are monitored and streamed to fans rather than having flying camera hoping to find the action.

If it isn't the intention of the developers to prevent and circumvent the things that players try and make for the game how about a statement about this issue. Or better action in the form of the aforementioned documentation.

As we have explained due to security reasons server files or any other access won't be allowed any time before the game is finished, this doesn't mean that we dislike bots or anything else, it simply means that we are concerned about security breaches that could happen if it's allowed.

In addition to that, I will just give you one simple example of why that is not the case, if we really disliked bots and fan-made content, we would not add support for various commands used in bot servers, and we would not fix those commands when they break, we would not do any of improvements in that area, from spawning items and vehicles on location to the ability to spawn in full mags, everything was done to ease the life of admin on a private server or the bots that are being used.

For your PvE remarks, that is precisely the reason why we have added in-game admin settings that can modify the zones on a specific server, you can change the whole map to be PvE and add regions that could be used for PvP, or just regions that could be used for base construction.

Most of the arguments that you have brought to my question are not working in your favor because most of the things that you have mentioned are already implemented in the game one way or another. One thing that is not public is server files.

Furthermore, we have absolutely nothing against servers using bots, increased loot, PvE servers, or a combination of all or any other combination, however, something that we will NEVER allow is for those servers to make use of the game and its features to create RMT and P2W environments to get monetary gain from the community and players on their server.

[WarderBrad]

Originally posted by xKiCkx:

I want to thank you for taking the time to reply. I had gotten a skewed perspective hearing only the server owners complain about one thing or another and saying it all came down to trying to defeat bots and prevent their use or other things like it.

I am sorry to anyone who thought I was attacking them or being overly aggressive. I honestly wanted to understand where the game was going and if my hopes had any place in the future for the game. I really hope that it will be possible to add interface options to see what effect your actions are having on your stats and skills. I keep not having enough strength for the bows I want or enough engineering for the things I want to make. Sometimes it is hard to tell if what I am doing is being effective.