The Real Issue with Servers

[Bruce Hill]

Ive said from day 1 that having 64 players on a server with masses of items will never work, its why i play singleplayer flawlessly with no lag and 140fps, this has been proven for many years in Arma and Arma 2, having lots of objects and spawnable items on a huge map causes issues. Bohemia Interactive only have a squad system of 8 players on there huge multiplayer maps so they can utilise all the equipment without performance issues. Ive yet to go on a player made server in Arma with over 40 players that runs correctly and even the 40 player servers have to be restricted in the amount of items that are available to use to maintain server stability. The Only servers that run well are the £500 - £1000 a month servers that have Altis Life on them that are charging players micro transactions to help with the costs.

Also playing on a potatoe doesnt help and no matter how good your PC is, the quality of the server will always dictate your lag, fps and rendering experience, its also why I will never play on a player made server, you need to have some serious networking skills to run one properly and the £20-£40 servers you can rent are terrible.

Any server that boasts X10 loot will run like♥♥♥♥♥♥ any server with more than 20 players on will run like♥♥♥♥♥♥and this will never ever change unless you have dedicated super servers with some serious power that can manage 64 players spawning 1000's of items in all over the map every second.

Beleive me I ran an Invade an Annex Arma 3 server with 3 networking guys out of a hub in Paris at a cost of £300 a month, 50 players was a struggle and this was with no spawnable loot just ammo and guns that were taken from a box at base and some tanks and planes.The coding and management that goes into it is beyond ridiculous to get them to run correctly, a half arsed rented server that has x10 loot and 64 players will be unplayable and nothing the Devs can do will change that unless they drop the amount of players per server. Tell me Im wrong all you like, seen it before, its why Dayz has so many issues, to make that game fun you need players on server, but in doing that you seriously hamper server stability. Its a never ending cycle.

Focus on Single player, and make a squad based Multiplayer.....64 will never work and it will only get worse as more stuff is added.

TLDR; Think of the server like your graphic card, if you are running a GTX580 and crank everything up to ULTRA, Super Sampling, Shadows etc etc the game is probably going to overheat your card and it will shut down, you will get stutter, frame drops and it will be unplayable....More players = more items, more npc's = more performance needed, to much and it crashes or you get what some of you think is a Memory leak, it isnt, its the server struggling to process everyting that is going on. Same as your graphic card would.

[denverbo]

I agree , but for me its strange , i get better frams on single player but get more micro stutters, but in multiplayer i get less frams but less micro stutter.

[Eekhoorn]

I don't know anything about his but when you go to the menu and re-enter the server, the FPS goes back to normal again. Wouldn't that imply that the object queue list can be deleted/reset/whatever while playing the game? Or doesn't it work that way?

[Bruce Hill]

Originally posted by Eekhoorn:

I don't know anything about his but when you go to the menu and re-enter the server, the FPS goes back to normal again. Wouldn't that imply that the object queue list can be deleted/reset/whatever while playing the game? Or doesn't it work that way?

Once you leave the game you have effectivly left the server, so you reset so to speak, when you enter back in everything is fine, then the longer you play the more the server is trying to transmit data to your character, more players, more npcs, deaths, respawns, things being deleted and respawned is all going backwards and forwards to your character, this can only go on for so long untill the data becomes to much and boom, Memory leak, lag, fps drops, stutter...Call it what you like, its the server struggling to process all the info back and forward to 64 players and all the items, dead bodies, ammo, objects on the map.

Go play on a server with 10 players, see how you get on, then go play on 64, it will be way way way worse. You simply cannot test how well your PC runs this game on a multiplayer server, do it in single player, adjust your graphics so you get smooth fps and it runs without issue, if you are running at low to medium with stable fps, then i wouldnt even bother with multiplayer.

[Eekhoorn]

Originally posted by TheLoneJedi:

Originally posted by Eekhoorn:

I don't know anything about his but when you go to the menu and re-enter the server, the FPS goes back to normal again. Wouldn't that imply that the object queue list can be deleted/reset/whatever while playing the game? Or doesn't it work that way?

Once you leave the game you have effectivly left the server, so you reset so to speak, when you enter back in everything is fine, then the longer you play the more the server is trying to transmit data to your character, more players, more npcs, deaths, respawns, things being deleted and respawned is all going backwards and forwards to your character, this can only go on for so long untill the data becomes to much and boom, Memory leak, lag, fps drops, stutter...Call it what you like, its the server struggling to process all the info back and forward to 64 players and all the items, dead bodies, ammo, objects on the map.

Go play on a server with 10 players, see how you get on, then go play on 64, it will be way way way worse.

Yeah, that part I get.

But what if you would reset the queue while being on the server? Wouldn't that work? Is there a difference between logging off (resets the list with no negative consequence) or performing this reset while on the server?

It probably isn't this simple, but I am trying to understand what exactly is going on here.

[Bruce Hill]

Originally posted by Eekhoorn:

Originally posted by TheLoneJedi:

Once you leave the game you have effectivly left the server, so you reset so to speak, when you enter back in everything is fine, then the longer you play the more the server is trying to transmit data to your character, more players, more npcs, deaths, respawns, things being deleted and respawned is all going backwards and forwards to your character, this can only go on for so long untill the data becomes to much and boom, Memory leak, lag, fps drops, stutter...Call it what you like, its the server struggling to process all the info back and forward to 64 players and all the items, dead bodies, ammo, objects on the map.

Go play on a server with 10 players, see how you get on, then go play on 64, it will be way way way worse.

Yeah, that part I get.

But what if you would reset the queue while being on the server? Wouldn't that work? Is there a difference between logging off (resets the list with no negative consequence) or performing this reset while on the server?

It probably isn't this simple, but I am trying to understand what exactly is going on here.

Im probably not understanding what you mean, by the queue, do you mean the time that a player logged in, so for example player 1 joined 2 hours ago and over a 2 hour period another 62 players have logged in and out and you are now the 64t ??

[denverbo]

Originally posted by TheLoneJedi:

Originally posted by Eekhoorn:

I don't know anything about his but when you go to the menu and re-enter the server, the FPS goes back to normal again. Wouldn't that imply that the object queue list can be deleted/reset/whatever while playing the game? Or doesn't it work that way?

Once you leave the game you have effectivly left the server, so you reset so to speak, when you enter back in everything is fine, then the longer you play the more the server is trying to transmit data to your character, more players, more npcs, deaths, respawns, things being deleted and respawned is all going backwards and forwards to your character, this can only go on for so long untill the data becomes to much and boom, Memory leak, lag, fps drops, stutter...Call it what you like, its the server struggling to process all the info back and forward to 64 players and all the items, dead bodies, ammo, objects on the map.

Go play on a server with 10 players, see how you get on, then go play on 64, it will be way way way worse.

For now iv got 5 diffrent servers on the go and i just play the one that is not full ( 40 or less seems ok ) for my system anyway. Ofcourse i still have to relog now and then but 40 seems to be my magic #.

only problem with haveing to relog is the drone is also triggered every time you relog : P

[Eekhoorn]

Let me try that again:

When you play on a server there's a queue of objects building on the clients side. The more players, the more data has to go back and forward.

When you leave a server, go to the main menu and re-enter the same server this client side queue is reset and your FPS will be fine for some time until the queue gets too big again; the more players, the faster it starts to drop FPS.

Isn't it possible to perform this queue wipe while being on the server? And if not, what exactly is the difference between the queue reset when going to the menu and reseting the queue while in game? A fake logout so to speak.

[Bruce Hill]

Originally posted by Eekhoorn:

Let me try that again:

When you play on a server there's a queue of objects building on the clients side. The more players, the more data has to go back and forward.

When you leave a server, go to the main menu and re-enter the same server this client side queue is reset and your FPS will be fine for some time until the queue gets too big again; the more players, the faster it starts to drop FPS.

Isn't it possible to perform this queue wipe while being on the server? And if not, what exactly is the difference between the queue reset when going to the menu and reseting the queue while in game? A fake logout so to speak.

An in game reset would mean all items and objects were removed, so when you leave an apple on the floor and go back 10 mins later its probably gone, the server has cleared it as a non usable item or useless item. When you log out you are effectivly doing that on your side untill like you say, you log back in and the server starts to transmit that data back to you.

Lets go back to the apple, so you drop it, and log out, while you do 3 other players pass through and interact with that object over lets say a 30 minute timeframe but leave it where it is, you come back in and the apple is still there, so the server does reset this stuff but as long as players are about and things are being spawned they cant be deleted because you could interact with it. Otherwise what would happen is you could be walking upto the apple and it suddenly disapears.....if that was a weapon, youd be pretty pissed. So the server does delete stuff but at the moment, more is being spwaned than removed, so it gets cluttered, and no matter how many times you log in or out you will eventually sucumb to the data overload. Obviously a better CPU and more ram help deal with that so people on high end systems dont notice it as much, but ultimatly it will happen no matter how good your PC is.

The only real way to combat this is have short server restarts, id say 2-3 hours, if a server has been up for 24hours and 300-400 people go through it its going to be very cluttered, and im pretty sure once NPC's are spwaned, they stay, so they are also now roaming all over the map.

TLDR; If you log out you reset the client, yes, for the server to reset everyone would have to stand still for a period of time and let the server clean everything up, effectivly resetting it. While people are spwaning in and out, and objects are being interacted with, this cant happen.

Does that make sense ??

[Eekhoorn]

I am trying to wrap my little walnut around this because what you say makes sense, but I am not sure if this is how it works. From the dev I learned:

People spawn objects into the world as soons as they open a box, closet etc. These objects are in fact invissible objects placed on the ground. It is these objects that build up a list on the client's side. When running around the map these invissible obects get picked up and placed in the player's vicinty. This list (client side) grows larger and larger until it gets to a point where the server can't keep up anymore.

So in my mind, the apple is both on the server and in the client list along with a ton a of invissible things. When you logout, the client side resets this list and after a new log in starts buidling up from zero again. But the apple is still on the server; the server did not reset because of my logout, my list did.

So I am trying to imagine why the client side list can't be reset while in game. It would not affect the apple on the server, right?

[ralf]

Eek that's a decent grasp on it, i imagine the two are currently not separated at compile of the api. Following, the devs would have to rewrite the class/function to allow such event handling, recompile, implement and test the changes to the source, finally the update goes live. This happens organically as the game matures and the stock api shortcomings come to light. None of this is as quick and easy as it sounds.

[Bruce Hill]

Originally posted by Eekhoorn:

So I am trying to imagine why the client side list can't be reset while in game. It would not affect the apple on the server, right?

I think thats how it works, but something isnt right.

Originally posted by rimmeh:

Eek that's a decent grasp on it, i imagine the two are currently not separated at compile of the api. Following, the devs would have to rewrite the class/function to allow such event handling, recompile, implement and test the changes to the source, finally the update goes live. This happens organically as the game matures and the stock api shortcomings come to light. None of this is as quick and easy as it sounds.

And this is pretty much what i was getting at, something is wrong with the client and the server not coresponding with each other correctly, so there is a back log of data building up that isnt going to get fixed at all imho, the real core of the issue will never go away. If the game is suffering now with the small amount of puppets, mechs and loot that we do have, increasing this is going to make it worse unless you start to drop the amount of players on the server....something has to give, the bigger it gets the more unstable it will become no matter what optimisations are put in place.

I beleive in the Wasteland MOD on Arma 3 the server has to be reset every 4 hours and the server performs 2-3 clean sweeps per session to clear clutter, this is how they get 100 man servers on Arma 2 running well, but that MOD is essentially a glorified BR with some minor base building. Bases remain and so does stuff in boxes but the server is ultimatly reset every hour.

Im sure they will figure it out, but if they are serious about maintaining a 64 man server, they are going to need some serious very very good dedicated servers...If the game gets as big as they plan, id bet that on a £20 rental you cant have more than 20 players for it to run smooth and who ever owns it will need to be quite handy with coding to optimise it.

[Rabbitakis]

Some Facts...

First of ALL : RUST has servers with 200 people and plays without any problems of stuttering, lag or fps drops. Now that left beta the game is super optimized. By the way in my system the game plays perfect, but scum is playing with stuttering in towns , desync in pvp, and fps drop the more time play. Reset in Rust server is not every 4 hours.. Full wipe is every week in most servers.

Secondly: Scum has stuttering in towns even in Single player (some people have more stuttering in sp than mp) and with the lowest resolution.Stuttering is heavy every 5 seconds.

Thirdly: If i play scum in server with 5 people again i have same performance like 64. The difference is minor.

Fourth: Game is poor optimized at the moment for Video cards with less than 4gb videoram ,
with systems with less than 16gb RAM, less than 4ghz cpu.

Video ram is the main issue of the game for me. Game uses 3gb from dedicated video ram memory , when that is full then gets from the shared gpu memory another 1gb while rendering lots of buildings and big ones such the police station. I dont know whats happening in airport or other bigger area , i havent test that yet. Shared gpu memory means that gets extra memory from Ram but the rendering speed is much slower using Ram . That causes the bottlenceck in the game and produces stuttering. Keep in mind that what i described is not the memory leak that most people face, that problem i described starts immediately when you start playing in areas like towns or with big buildings and lots of enemies, Also this problem stops when i leave from these areas no matter how long i have played. The video memory usage is lowered in wood areas where there is no rendering for building and enemies.

When you lower all the graphics from the config file in appdata folder again game uses same amount of video ram.. In RUST when you lower the settings to potato you gain more than 1,5gb video ram. In Scum even i change resolution rendering to 10 and the video ram is not affected.

My belief is that they need somehow to optimize the video ram usage.

My system is i5 8400 , 16gb ram , 1060gtx 3gb , GAME installed in ssd drive , OS WINDOWS 10 X64

[ralf]

Gents, all the issues you state are emergent from using an off-the-shelf api. They all have their pros and cons. There is simply no escaping this in any mildly complicated game. Speed to market is the silver lining. If the game engine were built from the ground up with foreknowledge of core issues, we would not be discussing the game for a few more years.
This Dev team are consulting with another team who have successfully dealt with the exact issues that plague this game, which should give us all confidence.

[TheSkunkyMonk]

it would work a little better if we could host our own games on dedicated hardware instead of shared boxes rented from gportal.

[Gauntlet]

Good to know thanks interesting !