One thing I still don't understand (spoilers)

[DoktorV]

Why didn't Adams and Lugo depose Walker from his command? "Mutiny" isn't quite the right word, since the officer in command is going insane. The man's clearly becoming unhinged rapidly and they're already violating their original orders by the third or fourth chapter. They seem too upright to frag Walker but it really does seem like the final flashbacks show they should have realized something was badly wrong fairly early on.

[Pakundo]

Maybe they just trusted him enough to follow his lead even when whatever they did went badly, because if they suddenly 100% went against him, they would speperate, and Dubai wasn't a friendly place to be alone at.

[DariusOne]

Yeah this is one of the biggest problems in the whole thing in my opinion. It is not quite consistent that they would remain as loyal as they do for so long. Still between being in Dubai alone, probably having been a team for a long time, not having better answers themselves to the situation and such I find it easy to not get distracted by it. At least during gameplay; with the ending in mind it gets worse. Still something I don´t really see a way around anyway, so I´m happy to ignore it even then.

[Katana]

Why on earth did YOU keep playing the game?? You torched civilians with white phosphorous!! You massacred HUNDREDS of American soldiers!! WHY?

The common response would be "The game doesn't give me any choice in the matter. I'm not the one making those decisions." And that's the response Adam and Lugo would give; I think the two of them form a pretty nice parallel to the player's relationship to Walker; following along not because they like what's happening, but because they don't have alternatives and don't quite see themselves as "complicit" in this murdering rampage. The truth is, I think either of them would be scared of being given the responsibility to make horrible choices themselves. What if they handcuff Walker, start heading for the exit, and then something horrible happens because of their actions? I don't think they'd want to admit it, but I think they feel pretty confident about being under the excuse of "This is Walker's fault!"

[mouton]

In time of crisis, unit cohesion is vital and they are trained to maintain it. They are friends, brothers in arms and in the hostile environment of Dubai sticking together remains the best bet despite Walker getting slightly joseph-o-conrady.

[ik]

First I think you may want to check the The_Milgram_Experiment[en.wikipedia.org]
It demonstrates how easy is to get carried away, even in normal safe environment. I guess you've heard of "just following orders".

There is actually another psychological phenomenon known as "Folie à deux"
Shared_psychosis[en.wikipedia.org]. That would quite nicely explain why after some time, Adams and Lugo start to participate into the hallucinations.

Walker is the commander who marks the target and gives order for fire, but Adams and Lugo are the ones who do the actual targeting and shooting. When they argue after they see the result of their actions, it is clearly that they also feel responsible for what have happened. In a sense they are all traumatized.

[BOT #00001 v3.2]

I'm sorry but no. If your commanding officer is showing signs of hallucinating, then the best way to show loyalty would be to relieve him of command. It would be one thing if he was simply making questionable calls, but that wasnt the case here. He was clearly talking to himself, hearing voices, and seeing things that werent there. All signs of heat stroke.

[Katana]

Well, I don't think any of them realized the voice on the radio wasn't there. I think they just figured that the radio was quiet enough that Walker could hear it, but the others couldn't. He didn't ever hand it to them.
The hanging bodies making Walker stop would definitely weird me out, though. And if home base were in any way easily accessible, I'd agree they'd take him back. But keep in mind relieving him of command means that you are down to two squad members keeping hold on one prisoner. Besides which, you assume that Adams and Lugo are 100%-reasonable, by-the-book people themselves. I'm not saying they start to hallucinate, but by the end they've definitely been twisted in some of the same ways Walker has.

[Grinn]

It easy to say for yourself, not so easy when it comes down to doing it in the middle of a warzone, all by yourself with no way out, in addition to doing it to a friend. Despite all that, both Lugo and Adam sounded their disagreement and dissatifaction throughout the game which makes it realistic enough.

[ik]

Here is a little glimpse of the reality. In this case the truth have been revealed.
The Kill Team[www.rollingstone.com][www.rollingstone.com]

The events in the article doesn't have anything to do with the events in the game.

War is Hell.

[BOT #00001 v3.2]

You had two theaters of war going on average of about 200,000 US troops at any one time for 10 years. You're gonna have instances where ♥♥♥♥ like this happens, but that doesnt mean it's anywhere near common. So no, it's not the "reality" for the US military.

[ik]

Originally posted by BOT #00001 v3.2:

You had two theaters of war going on average of about 200,000 US troops at any one time for 10 years. You're gonna have instances where ♥♥♥♥ like this happens, but that doesnt mean it's anywhere near common. So no, it's not the "reality" for the US military.

It is reality because it did happen in the real life. This is not game or fiction.

However what I wanted to point out is not that there could be a lone psychopathic murderers among the army men.

What is important (in the above story) is how the whole unit knew about the murders, because the perpetrator would not shut up about them. Yet nobody did anything to stop him. He even managed to find followers and to start bulling the ones who dislike his actions. All this with the silent help of the higher ups. This allowed things to go out of control and escalate.

I won't even try to argue how common or rare are the crimes in the army.
However I do expect soldiers to stick together and cover each-others backs. Even when one of them is not quite reasonable and his actions are questionable.

[Seeker296]

imo it's because they believed Walker was doing the right thing.

The 33rd had orders to leave Dubai. The CIA even tried to get them out.

I think this is a main theme of the story. People always talk about sanity - what's real in the story and what's not - and not about justification.

The true horror of the story is that there are no heroes - there are only orders. Konrad disobeyed his orders to leave the city, and it destroyed his reputation (and consequently sent the 33rd into chaos and tyranny after his suicide), the reputation of the USA, and perhaps Dubai itself. Walker and his squad believed they needed to get Konrad and the 33rd out - to follow their orders from above - not stopping to think about how pointless the whole situation was.
I believe this is partly a criticism of the USA's policies in Afghanistan in some ways, but I can't say exactly or for sure, because that issue (the war on terror in general) is extremely complex and historically dependent.

As Walker's sanity slipped, he was making order-adjacent decisions. Track down Konrad to find out more about the situation. Track down Konrad to liberate Dubai from the 33rd & save them. Once they've all come fully unhinged, track down Konrad to get revenge...

They were all on-board at first, then all losing their sanity - fighting because they didn't know what else to do...a very common result among shell-shocked people irl (2 of the 4 endings (spoilers) result in a "fighting to make it make sense" result - the path to glory (fight the soldiers who came to save you) and suicide (fight the self, aka make the guilt make sense).


A lot of people will say they don't revolt, because it's all a hallucination. Walker died in the helicopter, bc the dev suggested that's a possible interpretation. I think that's lazy and uninteresting. The surreallness and unreality of it all is something to be aware of - it is subjective and "unreal" in very serious ways. But we can't write everything off just bc the dev says it might not be real.

[wyte boi]

Originally posted by Seeker296:

imo it's because they believed Walker was doing the right thing.

The 33rd had orders to leave Dubai. The CIA even tried to get them out.

I think this is a main theme of the story. People always talk about sanity - what's real in the story and what's not - and not about justification.

The true horror of the story is that there are no heroes - there are only orders. Konrad disobeyed his orders to leave the city, and it destroyed his reputation (and consequently sent the 33rd into chaos and tyranny after his suicide), the reputation of the USA, and perhaps Dubai itself. Walker and his squad believed they needed to get Konrad and the 33rd out - to follow their orders from above - not stopping to think about how pointless the whole situation was.
I believe this is partly a criticism of the USA's policies in Afghanistan in some ways, but I can't say exactly or for sure, because that issue (the war on terror in general) is extremely complex and historically dependent.

As Walker's sanity slipped, he was making order-adjacent decisions. Track down Konrad to find out more about the situation. Track down Konrad to liberate Dubai from the 33rd & save them. Once they've all come fully unhinged, track down Konrad to get revenge...

They were all on-board at first, then all losing their sanity - fighting because they didn't know what else to do...a very common result among shell-shocked people irl (2 of the 4 endings (spoilers) result in a "fighting to make it make sense" result - the path to glory (fight the soldiers who came to save you) and suicide (fight the self, aka make the guilt make sense).


A lot of people will say they don't revolt, because it's all a hallucination. Walker died in the helicopter, bc the dev suggested that's a possible interpretation. I think that's lazy and uninteresting. The surreallness and unreality of it all is something to be aware of - it is subjective and "unreal" in very serious ways. But we can't write everything off just bc the dev says it might not be real.

Excellent take sir. I too prioritized justification theme in the story over whats real and whats unreal. Its just way more interesting to discuss.