Anyone like Sanctuary Hole? Feels a glitchy map...

[Tulip]

Painkiller: Resurrection has "Gloomy Mountains", a map with huge overuse of uneven mountain steps, cobblestoned walkways and stapled planks that it's impossible to walk without jumping to clear path oddities. My space bar was quite well-polished after playing it, and the artificial difficulty in just progressing discouraged me from repeat plays.

I was reminded of this map when I eventually completed the Sanct Hole ruins (in NVHM) to get to Caustic Caverns... but have to say it's not a great map; I'll probably use FastTravels to avoid it.

The textures - or design - seem a bit glitched here. I recognise the purpose of uneven ground in the light of the story... but it gets to a point where movement is hampered simply because your character is unable to step over a raised lip without having to jump in the air. It also defeats crouching to sneak up upon enemies.

(and I don't understand why Zer0, a stealthy assassin, feels the need to grunt for each jump or announce a melee attack... but that's nitpicking).

I know there's an area on the road down to Split Skull where lose stones cause vehicles to lose it completely... but this design is a lot more extreme.

Does anyone like this map?

[Nakos]

Conceptually and visually? Yes.

It's a fascinating area, you get to see parts of the city that were obscured before. You get to see what was UNDER the city. You get an idea of the scope of the Dahl mining operations.

Technically? Yeah, it's an annoying map due to all the uneven levels. (Although to some extent, that's a limitation of the jumping abilities and the time the game was made. You can look at more modern games (like Destiny 2) which allow a great deal more 3D freedom to the player).

But at the same time, I like quirky maps filled with nooks and crannies and switchbacks and multiple paths and hidden areas.

I hate maps that are "Three rooms and a corridor". I like areas that present more than that, and I like areas that imply more than they actually present. Anytime I can easily tell I'm in a Skinner Box I'm disappointed.

[Tulip]

Originally posted by Nakos:

Conceptually and visually? Yes.

I can't disagree with that - it's an interesting twist to see remnants of something familiar, and how local populace has put remains of a once-developed town to use with how it's now structured. Kinda makes you think that other Mad Max areas could have once been thriving and prosperous, rather than the makeshift shanty towns they now are.

Originally posted by Nakos:

Technically? Yeah, it's an annoying map due to all the uneven levels. (Although to some extent, that's a limitation of the jumping abilities and the time the game was made.

I have no issue with the uneven levels, more with a player that seems to shuffle their feet and is unable to step over raised lips, as though it's been designed with anti-Dalek measures in place.

I'm mindful of UT99 which has many custom maps, most designed so that it's perfectly possible for a player to run smoothly up ramps and steps - the exceptions tend to have oddities that force a player unintuitively to jump at specific points when stepping from carpet to tiles - if it's an obvious step I can understand, but there's ways of building those features such that gameplay isn't interrupted.

Originally posted by Nakos:

But at the same time, I like quirky maps filled with nooks and crannies and switchbacks and multiple paths and hidden areas.

I do, too - it makes them more interesting. However, my nag is the amount of effort it demands just to walk past a building and turn left, as though I'm stuck in a sack race and need to bunny-jump everywhere. Other maps have similar ledges and lips but don't require the same manoeuvrers - this actually feels by design, rather than an oversight.

Originally posted by Nakos:

I hate maps that are "Three rooms and a corridor".

Oddly, I was having a similar thought about the design of Horns (both Valley and Divide) - although located on different levels, the layout feels pretty natural and I quite enjoy strolling around both of those, even without vehicles.

There's been quite a bit of thought gone into each map, and I marvel at the small easter eggs here and there, undiscovered gems the first time around.

[Innocent]

Yeah this area feels really bizarre. I'm ok with having caustic caves under Sanctuary, but the psychos on the way down look like they've been living there for a long time, which makes no sense at all... Anyways, just power through, unlock the fast travel at the Caves, and forget about this area.

[Tulip]

Originally posted by Innocent:

Anyways, just power through, unlock the fast travel at the Caves, and forget about this area.

Yup. Other than the higher-level enemies (likely to drop upgraded weapons), I can't see much reason why I need to return there, and am likely to skip it.

Caustic Caverns is giving me some headaches at present...

The Varkids hiding in trash boxes was a surprise - that gave me a nasty start! Glad I encountered that in the lobby first, but thought it an ingenious way of reusing two game aspects, as there's not been any map combining the trash containers and Varkids yet. Badass Varkid in a dumpster truck is a pain, but a good few inferno shotgun blasts to the face does the trick, even if I've had to second-wind her a few times. I've used the warehouse infestation to build up "Quickdraw" counts (already completed Open Wide and Shotgun Sniper using Bullymongs and Skags over in 3Horns), but generally they're no worry.

Crys are no issues with melee attacks, and I gained "Can't Feel A Thing" without trying just because I dipped quickly into the corrosive pools to grab loot and let my shield and health regen me back up (was contemplating a Relic of Corrosive Resistance first, but seems it wasn't needed).

But those damned Threshers? Damned their tiny little critpoint eyes. They duck into the ground once I've dropped a grenade, they still manage to slither over solid rock and I can't get away from the sodding Wormhole Threshers - I had four FFYL in quick succession, and after failing the first managed to second-wind the other three solely because of the 4Q-PAL inferno shotgun I had, plus added reload speed and Tenacity Relic that extends FFYL time.

They're rapidly becoming my most disliked enemy, especially when clearing them outside the warehouse doesn't mean they won't respawn upon reapproach. DAMN THEM, I SAY!

[Nakos]

Originally posted by Tulip:

Originally posted by Nakos:

Technically? Yeah, it's an annoying map due to all the uneven levels. (Although to some extent, that's a limitation of the jumping abilities and the time the game was made.

I have no issue with the uneven levels, more with a player that seems to shuffle their feet and is unable to step over raised lips, as though it's been designed with anti-Dalek measures in place.

I'm mindful of UT99 which has many custom maps, most designed so that it's perfectly possible for a player to run smoothly up ramps and steps - the exceptions tend to have oddities that force a player unintuitively to jump at specific points when stepping from carpet to tiles - if it's an obvious step I can understand, but there's ways of building those features such that gameplay isn't interrupted.

Hmm... sure, but the UT maps are functionally a lot simpler. A lot of what presents the fiction of the location in those maps are the textures not the 3D shapes. Most of that was done in UE1 (or maybe UE2, but I suspect most of it was UE1).

BL1, BL2 and BL:TPS were all made with UE3.

The variation in terms of the travel planes the maps were built on is a lot greater.

Maps in UT99 can be pretty complex, but they're still mostly flat, or ramps connecting flat areas. (hmm... still have a copy of that somewhere, have to go fire it up... sadly, the Mac version won't run on modern Macs).

Hmm... loved Deck 16, Codex, Agony ... hmm ... and I think Laindri. There was one other, can't recall the name now, took place in orbit ... ahh.. Phobos, that was it.

But I'm digressing.

Anyway, the maps for the BL games (even BL1) had a lot more broken up terrain and uneven planes, and that's a lot harder to playtest all of it. A lot of what makes the BL maps feel more "real" (especially in BL2 and BL:TPS) are the uneven areas.

Was some of it intentional? I dunno, could have been. I agree it can be annoying, but as get closer to modern games, floor textures become more varied and avatar abilities allow for more parkour. Although, I suppose it's fair to say that BL2 exists in the awkward middle period between the smoother early maps and the more complex player physics in more modern games.

Yeah, Sanctuary ruins/hole is one of the worst maps for that.

Honestly coming back to BL2 after a long stint playing Destiny 2 (which runs on the Tiger Engine), it's annoying trying to jump stuff, and trying to jump gaps that I know avatars in Destiny 2 are more than capable of bridging or of even MISSING the jump, and then correcting in mid-leap.

[Radiowavehero]

I love jumping around , looking for Vault symbols and easter eggs , sanctuary hole was fun to explore the first time.

The game has it's fair share of jank but by the time you reach this map you should be used to it.

Maybe playing zer0 specifically and trying to sneak is the biggest problem.

[Tulip]

Originally posted by Nakos:

Hmm... sure, but the UT maps are functionally a lot simpler.
Maps in UT99 can be pretty complex, but they're still mostly flat, or ramps connecting flat areas. (hmm... still have a copy of that somewhere, have to go fire it up... sadly, the Mac version won't run on modern Macs).

True... but the point is that in UT maps, something need to be over a specific height before negotiating it requires a jump - below that height a player can simply walk forwards and they're auto-elevated by that amount, like stepping up onto a kerb or walking over a threshold.

Originally posted by Nakos:

Deck 16, Codex, Agony, Laindri, Phobos

Hated Phobos when I first played it, until I got more familiar with the maps. I run a UT server and Liandri was the default map as that was plain simple to get on with. Tried Deck17 in UT2004?

Originally posted by Nakos:

A lot of what makes the BL maps feel more "real" (especially in BL2 and BL:TPS) are the uneven areas.

It's not the realistic unevenness of those areas, it's the unrealism imposed upon the player to navigate them. I don't know of many times I've walked up to a kerb edge, stopped, jumped up onto it, then continued walking.

Originally posted by Nakos:

Yeah, Sanctuary ruins/hole is one of the worst maps for that.

Gripes aside, it's probably the map that magnifies this aspect of player movement - I've only hit this snag in a few other places and am conditioned to walk/drive around such minor obstructions that cause a major impediment. The map itself was fairly brief and I've (presently) no reason to return to now, so it's no biggie - just wondered who else experienced this (in case there was some texture setting I could change that would avoid it).

Originally posted by Nakos:

It's annoying trying to jump stuff, and trying to jump gaps that I know avatars in Destiny 2 are more than capable of bridging or of even MISSING the jump, and then correcting in mid-leap.

I spent quite a bit of time jumping gaps in ramshackle walkways (e.g.: Split Skull Bay) for fear of falling through them before discovering I didn't need to: what manifested itself as a hole was solid underfoot (and even *those* stairs don't need jumping to walk up).

I was also surprised to find the water wasn't chilly, compared to the sea in Southern shelf where falling off Soaring Dragon eventually killed me with cold damage (no way of getting back onto land).

Also annoyed at the lack of realistic health and safety in Southpaw... I backed away from a shot Suicide Psycho so that their grenade wouldn't do any damage... and promptly fell down a shaft due to a broken railing. Doh. Taught me to look next time.

[Innocent]

Originally posted by Tulip:

Caustic Caverns is giving me some headaches at present...

Caustic Caves is pretty much the anti-Zero or anti-sniper map. Up to this point, you can comfortably snipe most of the enemies from a distance (psychos are easy to crit), and i think they overcompensated with that level: fast enemies with hard to see crit spots, enemies that can approach you from underground or the air and healthgate you, super spongey enemies, badass Varkids, Fire Threshers, blackhole threshers... you name it, this level is cancer.

I just swap to a more aggressive build in the caves and ditch the snipers entirely. But yeah, I think it's poorly designed balance wise. I only go in there for the Heartbreaker. I tried to farm a Blockhead once but it took forever and i didn't get a drop, so gave up. There are much better areas to farm or quest in.

[Nakos]

Originally posted by Tulip:

Hated Phobos when I first played it, until I got more familiar with the maps. I run a UT server and Liandri was the default map as that was plain simple to get on with. Tried Deck17 in UT2004?

You know … I think I owned a copy of UT2004 (back-in-the-day) but I didn’t like the “jumpiness” that it added. Now I’d probably find it pretty pedestrian, but at the time I didn’t care for it and didn’t really play it. And these days, that old client no longer runs on modern Macs. I have a Windows version of UT99 which I can still run if I swap over to Windows (using Bootcamp). But I never developed the attachment to UT2004 that I had with UT99.

Originally posted by Tulip:

Gripes aside, it's probably the map that magnifies this aspect of player movement - I've only hit this snag in a few other places and am conditioned to walk/drive around such minor obstructions that cause a major impediment. The map itself was fairly brief and I've (presently) no reason to return to now, so it's no biggie - just wondered who se experienced this (in case there was some texture setting I could change that would avoid it).

Well, yeah, I mean, that’s the issue with it, it’s a transitory map. Its ONLY purpose is to provide a bit of tension as you try to navigate your way to the Caustic Caverns. There is no reason to return to it after you’ve passed through (and unlocked the Caustic Cavern’s Fast Travel station). That’s probably part of why it’s so bad, it got minimal play testing.

Originally posted by Tulip:

I spent quite a bit of time jumping gaps in ramshackle walkways (e.g.: Split Skull Bay) for fear of falling through them before discovering I didn't need to: what manifested itself as a hole was solid underfoot (and even *those* stairs don't need jumping to walk up).

Do bear in mind: What you see in UT99 where you see stair that you can walk up … that’s probably NOT your character assessing the change and adjusting. Rather, it’s probably that you’re seeing two things: Thing one is the stairs, they’re 3D solids with textures applied. But there’s probably ALSO a ramp layered over them. The ramp is transparent to the player’s eye. You’re not actually climbing the stairs, rather you’re climbing the invisible (to you) ramp and you’re seeing the stairs. That’s probably also true for most stairs in BL2.

[Tulip]

Originally posted by Radiowavehero:

I love jumping around , looking for Vault symbols and easter eggs

Ditto.. well, I like searching odd areas and trying to work out how to get to some item visible but seemingly unobtainable. Serious Sam BFE/4/SM was good in that regard (as was some Painkiller maps).

Originally posted by Radiowavehero:

The game has it's fair share of jank but by the time you reach this map you should be used to it.

I think the jank was occasional everywhere else, but frequent and quite pronounced on that map's top floor

Originally posted by Radiowavehero:

Maybe playing zer0 specifically and trying to sneak is the biggest problem.

mmm.. I just presumed other characters also had to jump over lips. Not tried other characters yet.

Originally posted by Innocent:

Caustic Caves is pretty much the anti-Zero or anti-sniper map.

It's definitely designed not to appeal to Zer0's abilities... but nonetheless, I'm getting to grips with it, having got to the truck four times and quitting.

Deffo figured out a strategy to get up to the warehouse fairly confidently, but I'm rethinking my choice of using that level for some farming. I'll see how Highlands pans out (and the unlocked areas of Fridge).

Originally posted by Nakos:

(UT2004) Now I’d probably find it pretty pedestrian, but at the time I didn’t care for it and didn’t really play it.
...
But I never developed the attachment to UT2004 that I had with UT99.

I play Invasion and Onslaught games online with friends, but set them to be botmatches so it's collaborative play. But I know what you mean about the comparison with 99 - that was simple run-n-gun, and it took me some time to adjust to 2K4 from 99's simplicity. We still return to 99 for the occasional MH map.

Originally posted by Nakos:

Its ONLY purpose is to provide a bit of tension as you try to navigate your way to the Caustic Caverns. There is no reason to return to it after you’ve passed through (and unlocked the Caustic Cavern’s Fast Travel station). That’s probably part of why it’s so bad, it got minimal play testing.

It served its purpose, then... but most other maps I've happily returned to - I think this is the first I'll actively avoid. Pity, as they could have made more of it.

Originally posted by Nakos:

Thing one is the stairs, they’re 3D solids with textures applied. But there’s probably ALSO a ramp layered over them. The ramp is transparent to the player’s eye. You’re not actually climbing the stairs, rather you’re climbing the invisible (to you) ramp and you’re seeing the stairs. That’s probably also true for most stairs in BL2.

This is kinda what I'm alluding to: what looks like stairs are actually a ramp, but what looks like uneven grating and staggered flooring isn't ramped at its edges, meaning there's no smooth strolling over it.

Anyhow, I'm probably making a bigger fuss that it deserves. Thanks for all the pointers, folks!

[Tulip]

Hmmm... I had cause to return here to complete "Safe and Sound" and it's quite different when played bottom-up... as most of the terrain is fairly flat until the beginning of the top deck, I didn't find it too bad this time around.

It's not my favourite, but certainly wasn't as bad as I remembered. And I'm glad it did it to get into Caustic and have a taste of the Caverns before heading back to Overlook and returning to Sanct, so at least I knew what I was in for.