Damage reduction/resistance?

[Pickle Bath]

So from what I read damage reduction works out to 100% = half damage, and it can go up from there. Looking at Krieg specifically here with say 50% from Mania, 50% from Numbed Nerves, and maybe another 25% from Taste the Blood with stacks.

But then how does this work with damage _resistance_, such as from a Rough Rider shield? Do they just stack together as similar sources?

[PipHoff -GER-]

Afaik, the Rough Rider works like any other dmg reduction.

E.g.: Taste of Blood 5/5 + Release the Beast + Rough Rider -> (1 + .5 + .5 + .2)^(-1) = .4545

That gives you around 54.55% dmg reduction.

[Pickle Bath]

Okay cool, so "reduction" and "resistance" just stack as if they were the same source. Kind of annoying Gearbox didn't just name them the same.

I imagine having a relic with damage resistance would work the same.

[blinkmoth]

Originally posted by Olrac:

I imagine having a relic with damage resistance would work the same.

yuss. But due to the diminishing effect of additional resistance, they are usually bad choices.

"Killing stuff faster" is still a major part of survivability in this game, and in that way, the various amazing damage relics help your survivability usually a lot more than the actually defensive ones.

[Pickle Bath]

Originally posted by comatose:

Originally posted by Olrac:

I imagine having a relic with damage resistance would work the same.

yuss. But due to the diminishing effect of additional resistance, they are usually bad choices.

"Killing stuff faster" is still a major part of survivability in this game, and in that way, the various amazing damage relics help your survivability usually a lot more than the actually defensive ones.

Does resistance/reduction have diminishing returns though? I thought 200% damage reduction would be twice as effective as 100%?

And yeah I don't think I'd run a defensive relic, I just wanted to know how it works.

[blinkmoth]

Originally posted by Olrac:

Originally posted by comatose:

yuss. But due to the diminishing effect of additional resistance, they are usually bad choices.

"Killing stuff faster" is still a major part of survivability in this game, and in that way, the various amazing damage relics help your survivability usually a lot more than the actually defensive ones.

Does resistance/reduction have diminishing returns though? I thought 200% damage reduction would be twice as effective as 100%?

look at it like this:

say you have only 20% damage reduction from RR, but no other boosts.
This gives you an effective damage reduction of 16.6% then. 1 - 1/(1.2).

Now assume you already have 100% reduction from your skills, and put the Rough Rider on then. Effective damage reduction without RR 1 - 1/2 = 50%. With RR, 1 - 1/2.2 = 54.5%. So the RR only gives you 4.5% more effective reduction on the total damage here, while giving 16.6% in the naked comparison.

The more base damage reduction you already have, the less effective damage reduction you will get from additional boosts. If that makes any sense.

[Pickle Bath]

Originally posted by comatose:

Originally posted by Olrac:

Does resistance/reduction have diminishing returns though? I thought 200% damage reduction would be twice as effective as 100%?

look at it like this:

say you have only 20% damage reduction from RR, but no other boosts.
This gives you an effective damage reduction of 16.6% then. 1 - 1/(1.2).

Now assume you already have 100% reduction from your skills, and put the Rough Rider on then. Effective damage reduction without RR 1 - 1/2 = 50%. With RR, 1 - 1/2.2 = 54.5%. So the RR only gives you 4.5% more effective reduction on the total damage here, while giving 16.6% in the naked comparison.

The more base damage reduction you already have, the less effective damage reduction you will get from additional boosts. If that makes any sense.

Good explanation, thanks. The low level math in RPGs always ends up confusing me at some point. Especially when I see counter points like this?:
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/t/damage-resistance-reduction-does-not-suffer-from-diminishing-returns/1272236
I've seen the whole outward appearance of diminishing returns (Diablo 3 does similar in a lot of cases) but then mathematically it works out to a similar effect, and avoids ever reaching 100% damage immunity.

As I level up Krieg I'll have to see how effective I find a Rough Rider compared to a melee roid shield.

[blinkmoth]

Originally posted by Olrac:

Originally posted by comatose:

look at it like this:

say you have only 20% damage reduction from RR, but no other boosts.
This gives you an effective damage reduction of 16.6% then. 1 - 1/(1.2).

Now assume you already have 100% reduction from your skills, and put the Rough Rider on then. Effective damage reduction without RR 1 - 1/2 = 50%. With RR, 1 - 1/2.2 = 54.5%. So the RR only gives you 4.5% more effective reduction on the total damage here, while giving 16.6% in the naked comparison.

The more base damage reduction you already have, the less effective damage reduction you will get from additional boosts. If that makes any sense.

Good explanation, thanks. The low level math in RPGs always ends up confusing me at some point. Especially when I see counter points like this?:
http://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/t/damage-resistance-reduction-does-not-suffer-from-diminishing-returns/1272236
I've seen the whole outward appearance of diminishing returns (Diablo 3 does similar in a lot of cases) but then mathematically it works out to a similar effect, and avoids ever reaching 100% damage immunity.

As I level up Krieg I'll have to see how effective I find a Rough Rider compared to a melee roid shield.

I know the gearbox forum article, it's just bad. Obviously, a 50% boost on a stat in its current state is always a 50% boost in its current state. That's basically what it is about. Great. I can see ourselves establishing that.

But in a forumla as we have it here, boosts suming up additivly to a divisor, the results of the individual boosts are diminishing in relation to the original value of said stats, by any possible mathematical point of view.

Which is just a jackass way to explain the things I explained with a simple example before.


and once more, another good comparison to D3. In favor of D3, it often mixes those additive-divisor mechanisms with aboslute boosts, for example with Cooldown (In-Geom for the win). You can often get to those seemingly unreachable 100% one way or an other. With occasionally rediculous results, 0 CDR on some skills etc, but it does make the game versatile as f. Ofc damage reduction is an exception there too.

[Pickle Bath]

I think the Gearbox forum thread is saying that 1% of DR equates to the same effective HP value regardless of your current DR.

Which is almost exactly the same as Armor in Diablo 3. On paper it looks like diminishing returns but actually works out to the same effective HP increase per Armor regardless of current Armor.

I'm not well versed enough on the subject to argue either side, but the Gearbox thread makes more sense to me. Either way I don't even have a Rough Rider yet, and only have a lvl 31 Krieg, so we'll see how it goes in the future.

[blinkmoth]

Originally posted by Olrac:

I think the Gearbox forum thread is saying that 1% of DR equates to the same effective HP value regardless of your current DR.

No, that is not what the thread is saying. And no, it doesn't make any sense.

The comparison to HP is like: hey, +100% DR are like +100% HP (which is correct), and hey, another +100% DR are another +100% HP!!!!!!! Fantastic, not diminishing AT ALL, right?

wrong. The first 100% HP effectivly doubles your health pool. The second +100% only means 50% increase (from 200 to 300%). And the thread takes this super simple example to mistakingly prove the oposit of what would be the actual point.

Well... if that still doesnt make any sense to you, cant help you.

[king of slickbacking since 1940]

Originally posted by blinkmoth:

Originally posted by Olrac:

Does resistance/reduction have diminishing returns though? I thought 200% damage reduction would be twice as effective as 100%?

look at it like this:

say you have only 20% damage reduction from RR, but no other boosts.
This gives you an effective damage reduction of 16.6% then. 1 - 1/(1.2).

Now assume you already have 100% reduction from your skills, and put the Rough Rider on then. Effective damage reduction without RR 1 - 1/2 = 50%. With RR, 1 - 1/2.2 = 54.5%. So the RR only gives you 4.5% more effective reduction on the total damage here, while giving 16.6% in the naked comparison.

The more base damage reduction you already have, the less effective damage reduction you will get from additional boosts. If that makes any sense.

you're wrong!!1

damage bonuses add up in a predictable way (+50%, +50%, +20% = 90% DR) and you can see that if you go and actually test it instead of being pretentious online

ps i love necroing threads and i also love people complaining when i necro threads

[BOT Anna]

Originally posted by noob:

Originally posted by blinkmoth:

look at it like this:

say you have only 20% damage reduction from RR, but no other boosts.
This gives you an effective damage reduction of 16.6% then. 1 - 1/(1.2).

Now assume you already have 100% reduction from your skills, and put the Rough Rider on then. Effective damage reduction without RR 1 - 1/2 = 50%. With RR, 1 - 1/2.2 = 54.5%. So the RR only gives you 4.5% more effective reduction on the total damage here, while giving 16.6% in the naked comparison.

The more base damage reduction you already have, the less effective damage reduction you will get from additional boosts. If that makes any sense.

you're wrong!!1

damage bonuses add up in a predictable way (+50%, +50%, +20% = 90% DR) and you can see that if you go and actually test it instead of being pretentious online

ps i love necroing threads and i also love people complaining when i necro threads

nice

[Pickle Bath]

Originally posted by noob:

ps i love necroing threads and i also love people complaining when i necro threads

Holy hell, 6 year old thread, come on dude

[Dekardi]

Originally posted by Recycled Medical Waste:

So from what I read damage reduction works out to 100% = half damage, and it can go up from there. Looking at Krieg specifically here with say 50% from Mania, 50% from Numbed Nerves, and maybe another 25% from Taste the Blood with stacks.

But then how does this work with damage _resistance_, such as from a Rough Rider shield? Do they just stack together as similar sources?

there are 2 types of damage reduction same as 2 types of crit damage
crit has type a and type b

so has dmg reduction
based on wich skill / ability salvador has both