My On-Going Krieg Learning Experience: Release the Beast

[Bringoutyerded]

Am playing Krieg for pretty much the first time after many hours in this wonderful game. I've primarily played Maya, Axton, and Zer0, starting new toons, resetting playthroughs, and completing challenges as I've done so. I'd never been truly drawn to melee, with the exception of the tactical use of the same with the assassin. Pretty much I've stayed with gun-based play.

Playing co-op as Maya with Krieg teammates, I've always been confused as to just how to play alongside of him properly. Do I heal him when I see his health is very low? Do I kill the baddies around him at this time? Why is he running into mobs at just the point that I'd be seriously thinking of running the other way, in avoidance? Why the heck does it seem that his shield always down?

Well, I'm learning. Having a lot of fun in doing so, too.

Just finished NVHM. Had some problems with Jack (actually a surveyor) glitching out. It's been a while since I've seen this, so didn't clue in right away. Got his shield down, started to lower his health with buzz axe rampage. All was well. Then he got his surveyor-tetherered shield. I downed the first surveyor, then lost Jack. When I found him ensconced in his red bubble shield again, for the life of me I couldn't figure out why I couldn't destroy it. Buzz axes just embedded themselves in the shield. Bullets of course reflected off of it. Teslas couldn't touch it. Then I clued in that the surveyor had glitched out somewhere.

I restarted, this time all worked well. Found that my Ravager shottie (found in the chest at Hero's Pass just before the Warrior fight) really worked well against the Warrior's mouth, not to mention the crystalisks. Love me that shottie with my Zer0 and Ambush, love it even more with Krieg.

It was funny, I got the level-up ding to 30 just as I poked Jack in the eye with my bladed Diaub rifle to put him down for the last time. The timing was perfect. To cap it off, had an Impaler drop from the moonshot, overall, I rarely get drops here.

So why did I mention Release the Beast? I finally spec'd into it as I started the second playthrough. Just met Flynt. I don't think that I can remember the last time he was so easy to kill. Waited until my health was below 1/3 from taking on his henchmen, activated buzz axe rampage, and a few swipes later with my bladed pistol he was down. Fun. It's what prompted this missive.

I now wish that I hadn't waited so long to give him another try. I think that I'm also starting to understand how better to play with him as a team mate in co-op. I'm looking forward to the remainder of this journey! Thank you, Kevin.Benko.

[Draekus]

you do realize i'm gonna bug you about my Krieg..........lol

[Bringoutyerded]

Originally posted by Draekus:

you do realize i'm gonna bug you about my Krieg..........lol

Draekus: It's me that should bug you. How far along have you gotten since we last played?

[Draekus]

haven't played him in a while........so you're higher level than mine.

[HelmsDerp]

Weird fun facti: Krieg has a scaling melee bonus that bladed guns overwrite. Up to the mid forties you're getting diminishing returns, past that a normal blade actually lowers your melee damage, although the Law and Rapier still benefit you. Something to keep in mind as you progress TVHM

[Bringoutyerded]

Originally posted by HelmsDerp:

Weird fun facti: Krieg has a scaling melee bonus that bladed guns overwrite. Up to the mid forties you're getting diminishing returns, past that a normal blade actually lowers your melee damage, although the Law and Rapier still benefit you. Something to keep in mind as you progress TVHM

Thank you for this tip, HelmsDerp. Interesting. I will definitely remember this. Any idea why it happens?

So past the mid-40s, it's the Law and legendary bladed weapons that overcome this issue? Does this mean that that's the point at which Krieg is best played full on melee, aside from these few weps?

Have you soloed him to OP8? I was anticipating needing guns for certain areas at the Peak, Saturns in particular. Buzz axes worked against him in normal mode, but much of the damage I did was via corrosive.

[Lord Cyphre]

Kriegs chaotic frenzy is one of the best experiences I had with this game. He may not be the strongest character in terms of DPS but he certainly is a whole lot of fun to play as.

I see you are using a lot of bladed weapons right now. Let me give you a heads up on Kriegs melee formulas:

Krieg base melee: ((Base*(1+KriegBonus)) + Roid) * (1 + Sum)
Bayonet: (Base + Roid) * (1+Bayonet) * (1+Sum)

whereas

KriegBonus = (1,6%*level) - 20%

At level 44 the KriegBonus is 0,504, higher than the 0,5 bonus from a regular blade.
UNless you are using roid shields, you really want to avoid regular blades on your gun to get the most out of Kriegs melee.

[Bringoutyerded]

Originally posted by Lord Cyphre:

Kriegs chaotic frenzy is one of the best experiences I had with this game. He may not be the strongest character in terms of DPS but he certainly is a whole lot of fun to play as.

I see you are using a lot of bladed weapons right now. Let me give you a heads up on Kriegs melee formulas:

Krieg base melee: ((Base*(1+KriegBonus)) + Roid) * (1 + Sum)
Bayonet: (Base + Roid) * (1+Bayonet) * (1+Sum)

whereas

KriegBonus = (1,6%*level) - 20%

At level 44 the KriegBonus is 0,504, higher than the 0,5 bonus from a regular blade.
UNless you are using roid shields, you really want to avoid regular blades on your gun to get the most out of Kriegs melee.

Lord Cyphre: This is excellent background information to back up HelmsDerp's earlier comment. Thank you!

I'm trying to understand the formulae, but admit to being confused...how is the base melee damage calculated to start with? What is the value for the "Base" variable?

What is being summed in the first equation?

What you list as "KriegBonus" appears to me to be a base damage multiplier (a percentage bonus) that applies to all guns, bladed or not, correct? I get a value of 56.36 with that formula at level 44; this means that each time I melee with any weapon, I get his base melee damage plus this 56.36% buff?

[Lord Cyphre]

Base melee (for all characters) = 20*1.13^Level

All melee bonusses from skills, COMs & BAR are additive and summed up, except for Buzzaxe Rampage; (1+Sum) = (1+skill+skill+COM+BAR) for example.

KriegBonus = (0.016 * Level) - 0.2; a special multiplier only available to Krieg which a blade overrides, as seen in the second formula:

(Base + Roid) * (1+Blade) * (1+Sum)

For BXR:

BXR: ((Base*BXR/RtB*(1+KriegBonus)) + Roid) * (1 + Sum)

[Bringoutyerded]

Originally posted by Lord Cyphre:

Base melee (for all characters) = 20*1.13^Level

All melee bonusses from skills, COMs & BAR are additive and summed up, except for Buzzaxe Rampage; (1+Sum) = (1+skill+skill+COM+BAR) for example.

KriegBonus = (0.016 * Level) - 0.2; a special multiplier only available to Krieg which a blade overrides, as seen in the second formula:

(Base + Roid) * (1+Blade) * (1+Sum)

For BXR:

BXR: ((Base*BXR/RtB*(1+KriegBonus)) + Roid) * (1 + Sum)

I shall need some time to digest this, but I'll get it...thank you for this, Lord Cyphre.

[Lord Cyphre]

Well, you can safely ignore the "*(1+Sum)" part from the equations, the most important parts are Kriegs special bonus multiplier and where it is applied as opoosed to a regular +50% blade.

Without roid it is either

Base * [1+(0,016*Level - 0,2)] - normal melee attack

or

Base * (1+0,5) - melee with a regular blade

You can't have both, Kriegs special and a blade active at the same time.

Should be easy enough to see that the higher your level the better your standard melee attack becomes compared to a stale +50% with a bayonet.

Now, roid makes a big difference:

Base*(1+KriegBonus) + Roid - normal melee

roid damage is just added in

(Base + Roid) * (1+Blade) - melee w/ blade

Roid is multiplied by the blade.

[HelmsDerp]

Huh, I didn't know the part about roid bonus calculating differently for the blade, that's very weird.

I suppose that just makes law/rapier even more imperative for endgame melee.

[Draekus]

update regarding MY Krieg. currently on A Train to Catch. just got to End of the Line, just before taking on Wilhelm. gonna farm that one Loot Chest for on-level gear.
will start looking for bladed weaps.
funny thing happened after i got the 2 Badonkadonks, went to the Varkid Research building for the 2 loot chests. ran into a Loot Midget and immediately pressed F without even thinking about it. holdover from playing Maya. when i realized what i had done, i just went for it......little bugger didn't even drop anything interesting...lol
will probably re-spec when i get back to Sanctuary.
also gotta work on my Buzz-Axe throwing..

[Bringoutyerded]

Originally posted by Draekus:

update regarding MY Krieg. currently on A Train to Catch. just got to End of the Line, just before taking on Wilhelm. gonna farm that one Loot Chest for on-level gear.
will start looking for bladed weaps.
funny thing happened after i got the 2 Badonkadonks, went to the Varkid Research building for the 2 loot chests. ran into a Loot Midget and immediately pressed F without even thinking about it. holdover from playing Maya. when i realized what i had done, i just went for it......little bugger didn't even drop anything interesting...lol
will probably re-spec when i get back to Sanctuary.
also gotta work on my Buzz-Axe throwing..

Draekus: Just keep in mind what HelmsDerp and Lord Cyphre brought up earlier. This is good to know for the future. I'm seeing a drop off in efficacy of my bladed weapons, now that I'm level 35 in TVHM.

It's probably just RNG, but I swear that I've had WAY more random loot midgets recently than any time in the past. On my way to bust up Boombringer's buzzard I literally had five in the small area surrounding the chopper.

They have yet to drop anything useful across both NVHM and TVHM so far.

I've started the rampage quite a few times when I shouldn't have. Timing still leaves something to be desired, but I'm getting better. Not like that one instance with you when I started it just as we killed the last stalker enroute to meeting the pyro thresher that swallowed the beacon. That was a lesson for me...

It's also good to learn and get better at switching between throwing axes and melee while in a rampage. It not only affects weakening/disrupting a baddie that is too far away to melee so that you can get closer, but helps greatly with stringing kills together. Switching between attacks also affects movement speed in a rampage as you move more quickly when in melee mode. Good for making up ground.

[Potassium pomegranate]

I'm still using my lvl-30-ish rapier from my first playthrough till UVHM.
All I need from it is 200% melee, no gun dmg or slag needed. still need to regulary change other gear

[Potassium pomegranate]

another essential gear is bladed rubi. for killing badass mobs that couldn't be one-shotted.
just spam melee