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Apparently, you're unaware that Anthony Burch was the lead writer for BOTH BL2 and BL:TPS. There's more direct consistency between those two titles than any of the other Borderlands games. But yes, I do decide what I think is sufficiently internally consistent to consider canon or not. That's a choice I'm making for myself, you're free to make a different choice. But that's not relevant to the issue at hand. Whatever happens in BL3 isn't relevant to the internal logic of BL2 vs BL:TPS, nor to this moral debate we've gotten off into.
Yes, Jack wanted to destroy the "Bandit camps".
But just because Jack decides to refer to something as a "bandit camp" does not mean that's what it actually is. As the old expression goes: Saying it doesn't make is so. Jack called New Haven a "Bandit Camp". Jack calls Sanctuary a "Bandit Camp". Those were both population centers of the innocent civilian populace, being administered by the formal civilian authority (as represented by Helena Pierce). But because they didn't fall in line and obey Hyperion's directives, Jack decided to destroy them.
And you've already admitted you're aware there were actually innocent civilians on Pandora.
Jack thinks everything on Pandora that he didn't personally build is a "bandit camp" That's kinda the point of the entire section of the story.
Yes, some of the "bandit camps" were actually filled with actual bandits. But we've already discussed that and you've dodged or avoided any attempts to rebut what I, Hemmis and Starbug (et al) have already pointed out: You don't know enough to dismiss them out of hand. None of them started out as bandits, and regardless of where they ended up, Dahl still bears a responsibility towards them.
Nothing they personally did absolves Dahl of moral responsibility.
Lots of people on Pandora use the term "bandit camp", not all of them mean the same thing by it, despite using the same word. That's one of those funny things about language.
Maybe you've played the mission Written by the Victor? That's kinda the whole point of that too. Jack cheerfully rewrites the entire history of BL1, retconning himself into the story.
https://borderlands.fandom.com/wiki/Written_by_the_Victor
What the heck are you talking about? Moxxi, Lilith and Roland figured that the STATION would be destroyed. At that point in the story, Helios Station was full of Jack, his personal "Vault Hunters", and Dahl forces. None of those are people whom Moxxi, Lilith and Roland felt were unacceptable losses.
Were there innocents (scientists, workers, etc) on Helios Station at the time? Yes, probably. Moxxi, Lilith, and Roland considered those acceptable losses provided the Weapon of Mass Destruction was eliminated. Yes, that's a brutal decision. I didn't personally make it, but if you want to get off into a debate about the morality of that we can.
However, neither Pandora nor Elpis were threatened by that decision. That was the point of their action. They were taking a powerful piece off the board (the WMD) so that no one (Jack or Zarpedon) could use it. They did that in order to protect the civilians on both Pandora and Elpis. For Moxxi, Lilith, and Roland, they were choosing to (potentially) sacrifice a handful of civilians in order to destroy Jack (a megalomanic with a WMD), Zarpedon (a fanatic cultist, who, ironicially throught she was doing exactly the same thing they were doing: Killing a small number to save a much larger number).
Pandora and Elpis were threatened by the existance of the Eye of Helios, not by its destruction.
AND all the innocents running around on Pandora, remember them? You've already admitted they exist. In fact, you just did it again. If the Bandits are "running around and murdering everybody" then that "everybody" is someone you have to consider. Jack was going to kill "everybody" too.
And again: No matter what the bandits were doing: Dahl still abandoned them.
You still don't understand what the term "straw man" means. I said you implicitly admitted there were innocents on Pandora. And right now, you've just explicitly admitted that you're aware that there are innocents on Pandora. If you're going to say that everyone on Pandora except the Hyperion employees were "bandits" then you're doing exactly what Jack was doing.
Pandora was filled with civilians who were there as ordinary workers who weren't convicts. Pandora was filled with ordinary people who's only crime was being born there.
<sighs>
Nope, not a lie. You really do have zero idea what any of those so-called convicts were actually charged with. No one has every told you what they actually did. Feel free to provide an actual link to a Gearbox Developer telling us what crimes they actually committed. Oh, you can't? Quelle surprise.
I don't want more murderers running around. THAT actually is a straw man argument.
The point is that Handsome Jack isn't some maligned innocent who only wanted to make things better. He's a narcissistic megalomaniac who cares only for himself, who kills anyone and everyone who gets in his way. Who lies, cheats, steals, murders, blackmails, enslaves, and attempts (at least twice) to commit genocide. And that's who you're trying to defend.
And here we have it again - you claiming that bandits are all innocent.
Yes, the very few people that are not bandits - the people that YOU claim are in the wrong and are justified to be killed.
Yeah, just kill a few thousand people, most of which are just construction-workers and staff - not insane at all.
And the rest of your insane rambling - please get help.
But again following your and Jacks logic, all the bandits are violent offenders who murder anyone they come in contact with, so Hyperion sent civilians there knowing full well that they where sending them right down to a planet where the only populace was bandits. That only make Hyperion look even worse and more careless about the human lives they claim to protect.
We have brought it up many times before, but not all of the people Dahl brought to Pandora were convicts, Tannis and her team being an exsample, those people were also left behind and never commited any crimes, those are the people living in New Haven at the time of BL1.
Saying that the people in New Haven (or Sanctuary, Hollow Point and Overlook as other examples) are mostly innocent civilians is not the same as saying all bandits are innocent, that's another strawman.
No, they're not.
New Haven was created by the refugees from Old Haven (who were chased out by bandits). See, that inherently proves that there are both innocent civilians AND Bandits on Pandora. Those civilians had nothing at all to do with Hyperion, and were mostly people who came to Pandora either to work directly for Dahl and/or Atlas, or to work indirectly for them, by providing goods and services to those Dahl and/or Atlas did bring to Pandora. And (again) there are also people (like Scooter and Ellie) who were BORN on Pandora.
Sanctuary was built on top of a Dahl corporation mining vessel. The people inside are the largest group of civilian survivors left (at the time of BL2 at any rate). Have you ever talked to any of them? None of them were convicts.
First of all, as I pointed out above, the people in New Haven and the people in Sanctuary were NOT bandits.
Second, that's you, attempting to make a "Straw Man" arguement. I never said the bandits were innocent. Ever.
What I said was that the Bandits were victims of crimes by Dahl. As baffling as it apparently is to you, I am neither claiming that the bandits were innocent, nor am I claiming that they were guilty. I'm pointing out that we do not know what crimes they committed (prior to being sent to Pandora as convict (slave) labor). But, regardless of what crimes they may, or may not have committed, Dahl DID commit a crime by abandoning them and turning them loose on the civilian population.
Yeah, see? There you go, admitting that you're aware that there are innocents on Pandora. Good, excellent, we're making progress. The actual numbers are irrelevant for the purposes of the moral debate, but they're a lot more of them than you think there are. (Or at least there WERE a lot more of them than you think there were, prior to the convicts being turned loose).
Nope, that's another Straw Man. I never said any such thing. The innocents deserve to be protected. That's what the Crimson Raiders are doing. Protecting them (from Hyperion and from the bandits). That's what the Vault Hunter (the player character) also does, joins the Crimson Raiders and helps protect the innocent.
Helios was populated by: Jack, Jack's "Vault Hunters" (Who really were Vault Hunters, but whom Lilith later insisted were NOT Vault Hunters, see, there's that whole concept of the same word meaning different things to different people again), and the "insane Dahl military forces".
So we've got Jack, who's a narcissistic megalomaniac with a WMD, Jack's "Vault Hunters" who are aiding and abetting him, and thus are also morally responsible for his actions, and the Dahl Lost Legion who were planning on blowing up Elpis (destroying all life on Elpis, which in turn probably would have destroyed all life on Pandora as well). And yes, there were probably some Hyperion Civilians left as well, but how many there were is unknown (and honestly, they were Hyperion employees, Hyperion wasn't a very nice company, a case could be made that any Hyperion employee has a certain amount of moral "taint").
So, yes, Moxxi, Lilith and Roland weighed all of those lives against the lives of those on Elpis and Pandora and decided it was an acceptable cost. (Again, ironically, Zarpedon was doing the same thing at one metal-level higher, by weighing the lives of those on Elpis and Pandora against the impact of the rest of the universe if the Vault was openned).
And finally, I'm not defending that choice, I'm just explaining it.
Mmm, yeah, tell you what, how about you go take an Ethics course, and maybe one on Logic.
Plus the ones who were actually just born there. They may have been "ignorant rednecks" but they weren't criminals.
But you have shown that you just want to ignore what the games actually tell us directly.
there is no point in you constantly lying.
None? So nobody of the crimson raiders - the combination of old atlas soldiers and BANDITS by rolands own words - is a bandit? How insane are you?
Heck , we even get told that the crimson raiders are going to the bandits with a "Join us or we kill you" proposal.
You CLAIMED that despite what the game and the devs show and tell us.
And you are still claiming that Jack wants to kill his own employees and the very few innocent people that the crimsonraiders are constantly killing....
UHm... that was a direct reply to your claims - and you are still saying to protect the BANDITS which are - and there is no arguing the fact - murderers at best.
Nice lie you got there.
What in your mind does bandit and criminal mean?
You just ignoring half of what we say doesn't make your argument any stronger, on the contrary.
And you still haven't provided a single quote to back anything you say up, if the game tells us directly, it should be easy to find.
Funny how that applies to you, with the slight difference that you even contradict your self constantly.
Yep. He's committed deeply to the contrarian troll role.
No, they're not. They're civilian cities.
Jack calls them "bandit" camps.
Jack isn't the authority, he doesn't get to decide who's a bandit and who isn't.
First of all, don't think I didn't notice you clip out the part about Old Haven being a civilian city, and the residents of New Haven being refugees from that.
https://borderlands.fandom.com/wiki/New_Haven
Second of all, No, Roland did NOT say that the Crimson Raiders were Bandits. He said the former Lancemen had a choice: Join the Raiders, OR become bandits. He recruited them.
All of Roland's remarks from BL2 can be found here: https://orcz.com/Borderlands_2:_Roland_Quotes
Go ahead and look for the line you think is there. You're not going to find it.
The game doesn't tell us that it tells us just the opposite. (See Roland's quote, above). Jack calls Sanctuary a "bandit camp", once again, Jack isn't the authority, he doesn't get to decide who's a bandit. He labels people "bandits" to dehumanize them and trivialize his brutal genocidal rampage across Pandora.
Second, if you've GOT a dev quote, then link it, otherwise you're making it up.
There's also the bit where he flushes three Hyperion scientists out of the airlock, but it's long so I won't quote it. You can find it here though: https://borderlands.fandom.com/wiki/Science_and_Violence/Transcript
Jack calls them "bandits", that doesn't actually make them bandits. And I've refutted your claim about the Crimson Raiders being bandits twice now (this time I linked the actual Roland quote).
You're wrong, the people of Sanctuary aren't bandits.
Really? That's the best you've got?
At the time Moxxi, Lilith and Roland blew up the Eye of Helios, Helios Station had the following on it:
Jack.
Jack's Vault Hunters: Athena, Wilhelm, Nisha, Claptrap (and Timothy, and Aurelia).
The Dahl Lost Legion (whom Claptrap referrs to as "insane Dahl military forces").
It's unclear how many Hyperion employees were onboard at the time. There were probably some, but it wasn't like the station was finished, so it wouldn't have had a full population.
But that's not the point. The point is that Moxxi, Lilith and Roland made a moral choice. They decided that the trade off in lives was worth it to destroy the Eye of Helios, save Elpis (and the people of Pandora), whom Jack specifically states he intendes to scour off the face of the planet.
Funny how you have absolutely nothing to back up your claims, and yet I can produce reams of quotes taken from the game to back up mine.
Funny how the best rebuttal you can manage is a weak straw man about me defending people.
People whom you're incapable of proving are guilty of anything, and whom the game deliberately differentiates from the actual "bandits" you fight.
Go ahead, pull some quotes, find me that dev link you keep insisting you know of.
Hey, I'm not claiming my memory is perfect, if you think I got something wrong, feel free to point it out. But I'm going to ask for links to back up any claims you make.