Exploring the story/lore inconsistencies

[JKopter]

this has been bugging me for a while... for anybody that has played the original Borderlands game through to the very end, you may remember that, at the end of the credits, we get a view of pandora from orbit, where we see angel's face in the lense of a satellite - a Hyperion satellite.
now, this is consistent with jack, in Borderlands 2, saying that he and Angel tricked the original vault hunters into openning the first vault (which is the reason for all the eridium on Pandora) and all that.

Now, I know the title mentioned inconsistencies, and all I've mentioned is consistencies, but I'm about to get to that - like, right now.

In Borderlands TPS (The Pre-Sequel), we see (well, more hear, but whatever) repeatedly deny that he was the cause of the first vault openning, that he only came to Pandora/Elpis AFTER the events in Borderlands 1 transpired. even to his supposedly trusted team of vault hunters on Elpis, he claims he denied his involvement. then we see that he only gains the knowledge of the 2nd vault on Pandora AFTER he gets slapped in the face by that vault symbol thingy.

to me, it just seems like they had a perfectly fine story, then tried to add something in the middle that didn't even fit. like none of the developers of Borderlands TPS had played the other 2 games

[Zen_Disaster]

Originally posted by JKopter:

Originally posted by teisintai:

So, Jack had no idea about second Vault on Pandora. How is it a plothole?
When he indirectly caused opening of first Vault - he used very little resources, 1 Hyperion satellite, and one Siren. Basically, he can treat that as side project, which gives HUGE profits for zero work on his part. He doesn't care much for the Vaults themselves - in BL1 and start of TPS he see them as target of opportunity. He will try to open any known Vault, but he doesn't commit to it. Look at Vault hunters of TPS - they are not here for adventure, unlike BL1 crew. They do it for money - mostly. There is Claptrap. You don't send Claptrap on important tasks. So, Jack at the start of TPS doesn't know about second Vault on Pandora - and doesn't care much about known Vault on Elpis.He starts to care when Eye of Helios gets destroyed by first VaultHunters - and he pursue Elpis Vault to deny to them it's riches. Basically, TPS is a story about "How Jack became a Vault Hunter".

It's a plothole because in TPS, Jack claims he knew nothing of the first vault, or its existence until after it openned, which is contrary to his claim (in BL2) that he and Angel tricked the first VH into openning the first vault.

this, of course, can be explained away with the easy use of 'Jack lies', which somebody else brought up already, but i was just getting annoyed at how they'd create (at least what i think to be) a needlessly complex plot hole, and such a boring explanation for it.
because of this, anything that we've learned from jack in the Borderlands universe can be reversed/changed, all under the premise that 'he lies'.

You keep ascribing logic to the writers' intentions and I sense that maybe what's upsetting you. How many times have you used a weapon in BL2 whose properties bear little or no resemblance to the ones outlined on its game card? Take that illogic and apply it to the meatier questions you're discussing about the game's canon. This black hole basically allows the developers to create any plot devices they feel like even though those devices may not make the slightest bit of logical sense. It also allowed GBX to assign a writer - Tony Burch who had never even played BL1 - to write BL2. As fans have frequently discussed, it also allowed GBX to update BL1 with a story style in BL2 - cartoonish comedy - that was non-existant in the original game.

[Nakos]

Originally posted by JKopter:

It's a plothole because in TPS, Jack claims he knew nothing of the first vault, or its existence until after it openned, which is contrary to his claim (in BL2) that he and Angel tricked the first VH into openning the first vault.

What specific quote of Jack's are you thinking of when you say that? Because I'm not recalling a specific instance where he says that.

He refers to Roland and Lilith as ex-Vault Hunters when he sees them in Moxxi's bar, so clearly he knows of their exploits. He also has the Eye of Helios and is over seeing a project to clone the monster from the first Vault.

BL:TPS is a story told by Athena, who has some specific biases due to her history. Jack deliberatly downplaying his abilities and involvements to her as a way to trick her into working for him is completely believable (in my opinion).

[trukr]

I don't find it complicated, Jack does lie, a lot. Stop over thinking it.

[JKopter]

Originally posted by Nakos:

Originally posted by JKopter:

It's a plothole because in TPS, Jack claims he knew nothing of the first vault, or its existence until after it openned, which is contrary to his claim (in BL2) that he and Angel tricked the first VH into openning the first vault.

What specific quote of Jack's are you thinking of when you say that? Because I'm not recalling a specific instance where he says that.

He refers to Roland and Lilith as ex-Vault Hunters when he sees them in Moxxi's bar, so clearly he knows of their exploits. He also has the Eye of Helios and is over seeing a project to clone the monster from the first Vault.

BL:TPS is a story told by Athena, who has some specific biases due to her history. Jack deliberatly downplaying his abilities and involvements to her as a way to trick her into working for him is completely believable (in my opinion).

Sorry, I don't have a recorded instance of him saying it, but I remember him mentioning it near the start of the game, when we meet him for the first time and he's being shot at. he yells some stuff at Zarpedon while he and you are running through Helios to get to the cannon thing as well.

[Nakos]

Originally posted by JKopter:

Sorry, I don't have a recorded instance of him saying it, but I remember him mentioning it near the start of the game, when we meet him for the first time and he's being shot at. he yells some stuff at Zarpedon while he and you are running through Helios to get to the cannon thing as well.

Hm... pretty sure you're misremembering that.

http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/Welcome_to_Helios/Transcript
http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/Lost_Legion_Invasion/Transcript

[muchdebate]

Hmmmm ... I see I am gonna have to actually play B1.

[gamename]

1) This is basically a useless post, I just found it odd/amusing to see all the spoiler-tag-guarding, after the OP didn't.

2) Much-d - what you said about necro-bumping? And how I said it's not a problem if you add something of value, but if you just say 'ooh, yeah' ... Granted, this forum is a mess today anyway. Also granted, my own post right here is equally useless - but you started it.
Edit - Or, you could just read the BL1 wiki - apparently that would qualify you to write BL3 ...

3) Dontu, if you're still here - Schroeder isn't autistic, he's traumatized because of an incident at a jazz club, where that song was playing while his parents died from a deliberate triggering of their peanut allergies. That's why it's called Peanuts. Spoiler! Conspiracy! Do de doot, de doot de doo doo ...

I'll show myself out.

[muchdebate]

Sources of Lore - mostly the game(se). Secondarily the Wiki's. I have to say that so far I hate the Wiki's I have found related to B2. The are so busy with ads, extra scripts. If I spend much time there I have to restart my computer.

I really love the Wiki's (or at least one of them in particular) for ES, but I haven't found a comperable one for B2.

As for necro-ing a thread, I just did a search on "lore" and grabbed the first one I saw. Don't care much about it's past, just the title informing folks that this is a lore thread.

Oh...last lore source. Other players on forums. There are some really cool thoughts and comments out there. I do my best to skip through the crap. Or be amused by it.

[gamename]

It's been a while since I used it, but I think it's the Wikia I was thinking of. I generally block ads, JS, etc - so IDK if that was an issue.

ES? Endless Sky?

Ed - Wait, wait, I mean ... spoiler

[muchdebate]

ES = Elder Scrolls

[Zen_Disaster]

Originally posted by muchdebate:

Hmmmm ... I see I am gonna have to actually play B1.

You can't say we haven't been trying to bend your arm to do just this for a few months now - some folks who've written some of BL's best fanfic have played all four BL games BL1 BL2 BLTPS BLTFTB and been inspired to try unravelling and making sense of the series' broken lore.

[dontu_worry]

Originally posted by Zen_Master:

Originally posted by muchdebate:

Hmmmm ... I see I am gonna have to actually play B1.

You can't say we haven't been trying to bend your arm to do just this for a few months now - some folks who've written some of BL's best fanfic have played all four BL games BL1 BL2 BLTPS BLTFTB and been inspired to try dechiphering the series' broken lore.

About as fun and worthwhile as buying a half tonne of sausage and from it, reassembling an entire pig.

[Zen_Disaster]

Originally posted by dontu_worry:

Originally posted by Zen_Master:

You can't say we haven't been trying to bend your arm to do just this for a few months now - some folks who've written some of BL's best fanfic have played all four BL games BL1 BL2 BLTPS BLTFTB and been inspired to try dechiphering the series' broken lore.

About as fun and worthwhile as buying a half tonne of sausage and from it, reassembling an entire pig.

You know it ain't my cuppa tea either.

[muchdebate]

Originally posted by Zen_Master:

Originally posted by muchdebate:

Hmmmm ... I see I am gonna have to actually play B1.

You can't say we haven't been trying to bend your arm to do just this for a few months now - some folks who've written some of BL's best fanfic have played all four BL games BL1 BL2 BLTPS BLTFTB and been inspired to try unravelling and making sense of the series' broken lore.

Very true... but now (with that seductive sale) I've actually purchased.... um B, BthePre and Tales. And some other stuff.

And yeah, I get that lore-analysis and assembly is NOT everyone's cuppa tea

But for me it's like crack

[dontu_worry]

Originally posted by muchdebate:

Originally posted by Zen_Master:

You can't say we haven't been trying to bend your arm to do just this for a few months now - some folks who've written some of BL's best fanfic have played all four BL games BL1 BL2 BLTPS BLTFTB and been inspired to try unravelling and making sense of the series' broken lore.

Very true... but now (with that seductive sale) I've actually purchased.... um B, BthePre and Tales. And some other stuff.

And yeah, I get that lore-analysis and assembly is NOT everyone's cuppa tea

But for me it's like crack

Good lore analysis? Yes. But not this crap. And my understanding is, that since there is no actual lore here, what you are doing is creating it nearly from scratch, which is your thing.