Borderlands 2

Borderlands 2

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JKopter 10 listopada 2016 o 0:03
Exploring the story/lore inconsistencies
this has been bugging me for a while... for anybody that has played the original Borderlands game through to the very end, you may remember that, at the end of the credits, we get a view of pandora from orbit, where we see angel's face in the lense of a satellite - a Hyperion satellite.
now, this is consistent with jack, in Borderlands 2, saying that he and Angel tricked the original vault hunters into openning the first vault (which is the reason for all the eridium on Pandora) and all that.

Now, I know the title mentioned inconsistencies, and all I've mentioned is consistencies, but I'm about to get to that - like, right now.

In Borderlands TPS (The Pre-Sequel), we see (well, more hear, but whatever) repeatedly deny that he was the cause of the first vault openning, that he only came to Pandora/Elpis AFTER the events in Borderlands 1 transpired. even to his supposedly trusted team of vault hunters on Elpis, he claims he denied his involvement. then we see that he only gains the knowledge of the 2nd vault on Pandora AFTER he gets slapped in the face by that vault symbol thingy.

to me, it just seems like they had a perfectly fine story, then tried to add something in the middle that didn't even fit. like none of the developers of Borderlands TPS had played the other 2 games
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Nakos 10 listopada 2016 o 0:20 
Jack Lies.

He lies about how much involvement he had in opening the first vault. Sometimes he lies that he had less involvement, intentionally downplaying his role and his importance. He does this because his plan to take over Hyperion isn't ready to be revealed yet. (At least not at the time he presents himself as being less involved (or not involved at all)).

Later on, he lies about how much he had to do with it, presenting himself as the sole hero who knew what the first Vault was, and the sole hero who was able to defeat the monster inside. (See the historical tour mission in Opportunity).

Anthony Burch was the primary writer for both BL2 and BL:TPS.

It's entirely possible that there are some real plot holes and inconsistencies, but I think what you're looking at is simply examples of Jack lying.
Ostatnio edytowany przez: Nakos; 10 listopada 2016 o 0:21
JKopter 10 listopada 2016 o 1:01 
Początkowo opublikowane przez Nakos:
Jack Lies.

He lies about how much involvement he had in opening the first vault. Sometimes he lies that he had less involvement, intentionally downplaying his role and his importance. He does this because his plan to take over Hyperion isn't ready to be revealed yet. (At least not at the time he presents himself as being less involved (or not involved at all)).

Later on, he lies about how much he had to do with it, presenting himself as the sole hero who knew what the first Vault was, and the sole hero who was able to defeat the monster inside. (See the historical tour mission in Opportunity).

Anthony Burch was the primary writer for both BL2 and BL:TPS.

It's entirely possible that there are some real plot holes and inconsistencies, but I think what you're looking at is simply examples of Jack lying.

I did consider that maybe it was all just Jack lying, but then I i thought about the start of TPS, where he really did seem like a coward, and new to the whole thing. I'm not saying that it definitely couldn't have been part of his big plan, but the Jack that we see at the start of TPS just doesn't seem capable of pulling off a stunt like controlling angel and tricking the original vault hunters into openning the vault.

it's not until later in the (TPS) story that we start to see the Jack that we all know and love from Borderlands 2. I mean, all his lying and huge ego could've stemmed from the knowledge that Elpis' vault gave him, which probably would've included what transpired during the timeline of Borderlands 1, allowing him to claim credit
dontu_worry 10 listopada 2016 o 1:50 
Congratulations. You two have just spent doubledthe time the original writers spent on the stories for all 3 games. If you dig here, all you will accomplish is to open a sinkhole. There is nothing below the surface at all. Go read some good fiction if you want to be immersed and amazed. Pandora is a carnival game where you shoot 2 dimensional plywood silhouettes. But, the guns are neat and the targets are colorful.
Ostatnio edytowany przez: dontu_worry; 10 listopada 2016 o 1:51
Nakos 10 listopada 2016 o 1:58 
Even in the begining of BL:TPS Athena says "I don't know if his actions were selfless, or merely strategic" meaning that she's aknowledging that Jack may well have been lying to her from the very begining.

He tells Athena that he's a low level programer. Yet everything else points to the fact that he's not. Tassider seems to consider him the primary Hyperion Executive officer on Helios station. Jack himself claims to be the head of the division that pays the Merrif's pension. And as you play, it's clear that Jack has been doing all sorts of things that only someone in charge of Helios would be capable of. The Eye of Helios being the biggest example. But he's also got a body double on order, at company expense. He also offers Wilhelm "a couple million bucks".

It's quite possible that he's really never been actually shot at prior to the attack by Dahl forces, but that doesn't mean he hasn't been in charage and hasn't been pulling the strings.

In my opinion, what he's trying to do with the BL:TPS vault hunters is to conduct an investigation "off the books" so that Tassider doesn't figure out what he's doing and so that he's got at least some legal plausability in saying that it was a private project and is, thus, all his, assuming it ends up paying off. He's happy to cheat, and use Hyperion resources, but he doesn't want to have to SHARE it with Hyperion, and at the start of BL:TPS, he doesn't yet have complete control.

On a more meta level, yes, his involvment in the cannon story really is something of a retcon. But the writer aknowledges that. That's part of what makes the Historical mission in Opprotunity so amusing. Jack is a retcon, but he's also re-writing his own history so that he was always a part of it. He writes himself into the story: Therefore he is. The amusing part is how hamhanded he is about it.
Nakos 10 listopada 2016 o 1:59 
Początkowo opublikowane przez dontu_worry:
Congratulations. You two have just spent doubledthe time the original writers spent on the stories for all 3 games. If you dig here, all you will accomplish is to open a sinkhole. There is nothing below the surface at all. Go read some good fiction if you want to be immersed and amazed. Pandora is a carnival game where you shoot 2 dimensional plywood silhouettes. But, the guns are neat and the targets are colorful.

Sure, but who cares?

Speculating about it is fun for me. So is dismantling the story and seeing which mechancis work, and which ones don't.

It's no more complex than an action movie or a comic book, but hey, those can be fun sometimes.
Ostatnio edytowany przez: Nakos; 10 listopada 2016 o 2:02
dontu_worry 10 listopada 2016 o 2:15 
Why does Schroeder from Peanuts only play that one song? Is he autistic? Did his mom run out of money for piano lessons? I have theories....
Nakos 10 listopada 2016 o 2:24 
Don't get me started!
Mr.Aight 10 listopada 2016 o 8:22 
Torgue said what the f*ck is a ref when moxxy asks where the ref is, but before that he had asked where's the ref in the very first battles, so he knew what a ref was lmfao.
dontu_worry 10 listopada 2016 o 8:36 
Początkowo opublikowane przez Mr. Rude ♥♥♥♥:
Torgue said what the f*ck is a ref when moxxy asks where the ref is, but before that he had asked where's the ref in the very first battles, so he knew what a ref was lmfao.

Conspiracy!!!!
trukr 10 listopada 2016 o 8:38 
Początkowo opublikowane przez Mr. Rude ♥♥♥♥:
Torgue said what the f*ck is a ref when moxxy asks where the ref is, but before that he had asked where's the ref in the very first battles, so he knew what a ref was lmfao.

When someone gets away with something against the rules, people say "where's the ref?" That is not saying you don't know what a ref is, but that you think the ref was not there/paying attention.

edit: ^^^YES, it's a CONSPIRACY!^^^

Ostatnio edytowany przez: trukr; 10 listopada 2016 o 8:39
teisintai 10 listopada 2016 o 11:32 
Actually, when Jack says about never being on Pandora/Elpis before first Vault opening - it's can be true - did you see Helios in BL1? You can't just miss it =)
About not being involved with it - he can't say truth because that will expose Angel - and you don't expose your secret Siren just for storytelling.
The thing is, if we remove Zarpedon from the TPS, we get this:
- manager (Jack) exploited his secret Siren to trick some people into opening Vault.
- this lead to Eridium outbreak, which made Pandora mining target (again), and Hyperion arrived to reap profits.
- Jack, as one to lead company to those profits, was given Helios and resources - which is not all that Hyperion have, i think it's more like branch office on space station. So - promoted to branch office XO after gaining profits for company - totally believable.
- he used those resources to raise personal security (body double)
- also, he constructed Eye of Helios - to combat Pandora surface dangers to Hyperion assets. If you are Hyperion engineer and your eridian mine is approached by something like Vermivorous - you will want that eye in the sky =)
- and then he tried to gather even more resources by opening Vault on Elpis - by recruiting outside help.
All in all, I don't think that he was going to take over Hyperion by force. If he got eridium, Eye of Helios, working Helios, slag experiments, Elpis vault (and, possibly, Vault of the Warrior) - he was totally on track to taking over Hyperion by merit.

Zen_Disaster 10 listopada 2016 o 17:41 
Początkowo opublikowane przez JKopter:
this has been bugging me for a while... for anybody that has played the original Borderlands game ... to me, it just seems like they had a perfectly fine story, then tried to add something in the middle that didn't even fit. like none of the developers of Borderlands TPS had played the other 2 games

Your complaint isn't uncommon. Anthony Burch, lead developer of BL2, had never played BL1 and was only vaguely familiar with the canon thru reading the BL1 wiki.
Ostatnio edytowany przez: Zen_Disaster; 10 listopada 2016 o 17:43
JKopter 11 listopada 2016 o 12:34 
Początkowo opublikowane przez teisintai:
Actually, when Jack says about never being on Pandora/Elpis before first Vault opening - it's can be true - did you see Helios in BL1? You can't just miss it =)
About not being involved with it - he can't say truth because that will expose Angel - and you don't expose your secret Siren just for storytelling.
The thing is, if we remove Zarpedon from the TPS, we get this:
- manager (Jack) exploited his secret Siren to trick some people into opening Vault.
- this lead to Eridium outbreak, which made Pandora mining target (again), and Hyperion arrived to reap profits.
- Jack, as one to lead company to those profits, was given Helios and resources - which is not all that Hyperion have, i think it's more like branch office on space station. So - promoted to branch office XO after gaining profits for company - totally believable.
- he used those resources to raise personal security (body double)
- also, he constructed Eye of Helios - to combat Pandora surface dangers to Hyperion assets. If you are Hyperion engineer and your eridian mine is approached by something like Vermivorous - you will want that eye in the sky =)
- and then he tried to gather even more resources by opening Vault on Elpis - by recruiting outside help.
All in all, I don't think that he was going to take over Hyperion by force. If he got eridium, Eye of Helios, working Helios, slag experiments, Elpis vault (and, possibly, Vault of the Warrior) - he was totally on track to taking over Hyperion by merit.

If Angel was communicating with the original vault hunters from a satellite in space, what's to say that Jack already had control of Helios -with Angel on board, and was on his way to Pandora. however, this still leads to the fact that jack had no idea about the 2nd vault on Pandora until AFTER he openned the one in TPS.
teisintai 11 listopada 2016 o 13:31 
Początkowo opublikowane przez JKopter:
If Angel was communicating with the original vault hunters from a satellite in space, what's to say that Jack already had control of Helios -with Angel on board, and was on his way to Pandora. however, this still leads to the fact that jack had no idea about the 2nd vault on Pandora until AFTER he openned the one in TPS.
So, Jack had no idea about second Vault on Pandora. How is it a plothole?
When he indirectly caused opening of first Vault - he used very little resources, 1 Hyperion satellite, and one Siren. Basically, he can treat that as side project, which gives HUGE profits for zero work on his part. He doesn't care much for the Vaults themselves - in BL1 and start of TPS he see them as target of opportunity. He will try to open any known Vault, but he doesn't commit to it. Look at Vault hunters of TPS - they are not here for adventure, unlike BL1 crew. They do it for money - mostly. There is Claptrap. You don't send Claptrap on important tasks. So, Jack at the start of TPS doesn't know about second Vault on Pandora - and doesn't care much about known Vault on Elpis.He starts to care when Eye of Helios gets destroyed by first VaultHunters - and he pursue Elpis Vault to deny to them it's riches. Basically, TPS is a story about "How Jack became a Vault Hunter".
JKopter 11 listopada 2016 o 14:39 
Początkowo opublikowane przez teisintai:
Początkowo opublikowane przez JKopter:
If Angel was communicating with the original vault hunters from a satellite in space, what's to say that Jack already had control of Helios -with Angel on board, and was on his way to Pandora. however, this still leads to the fact that jack had no idea about the 2nd vault on Pandora until AFTER he openned the one in TPS.
So, Jack had no idea about second Vault on Pandora. How is it a plothole?
When he indirectly caused opening of first Vault - he used very little resources, 1 Hyperion satellite, and one Siren. Basically, he can treat that as side project, which gives HUGE profits for zero work on his part. He doesn't care much for the Vaults themselves - in BL1 and start of TPS he see them as target of opportunity. He will try to open any known Vault, but he doesn't commit to it. Look at Vault hunters of TPS - they are not here for adventure, unlike BL1 crew. They do it for money - mostly. There is Claptrap. You don't send Claptrap on important tasks. So, Jack at the start of TPS doesn't know about second Vault on Pandora - and doesn't care much about known Vault on Elpis.He starts to care when Eye of Helios gets destroyed by first VaultHunters - and he pursue Elpis Vault to deny to them it's riches. Basically, TPS is a story about "How Jack became a Vault Hunter".

It's a plothole because in TPS, Jack claims he knew nothing of the first vault, or its existence until after it openned, which is contrary to his claim (in BL2) that he and Angel tricked the first VH into openning the first vault.

this, of course, can be explained away with the easy use of 'Jack lies', which somebody else brought up already, but i was just getting annoyed at how they'd create (at least what i think to be) a needlessly complex plot hole, and such a boring explanation for it.
because of this, anything that we've learned from jack in the Borderlands universe can be reversed/changed, all under the premise that 'he lies'.
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