Slag was the worst idea ever...

[Shevek]

I love the game but I don't know how the devs thought Slag was a good idea. I hope there won't be Slag on BL3. Am I a minority here? What vet Borderland players think of Slag?

[Neo]

NZL eredeti hozzászólása:

slag was good for swapping & maximizing dps and making the game less 1 click dimensional fest like bl1 one was. it was a good try on devs part to make combat more interesting.

Problem with slag is that on much higher levels it doesn't seem to last long enough on the target for even a weapon swap. Basically the mechanic prefers having at least 2 people. 1 person applying the slag while the other shoots. For solo it is a complete turn off.

[Abderrahman]

Can you eat meat without cooking it ?

[Alucard †]

Random Hajile eredeti hozzászólása:

Slag sucks, one of the reasons I prefer TPS. UVHM is done right.

Isnt cryo pretty much the new slag there?

[Bansheebutt]

It was interesting in Theory, and it could have been a useful tool for Non-Elemental Characters.

The way they shoved it up your ass in UVHM was a travesty though.

If it returns I would want to see:

* Slag available as an Alt-Fire on weapons. (Also Alt-Fires in general)

* Multiple Grenade Mod Slots, so you can switch to Slag Grenades instead of using them exclusively.

* Slag primarily benefitting Non-Elemental damage. The multi-stacking just necessitates enemies with enormous health pools that can not reasonably be defeated without said stacking. (Aka UVHM)

[NZL]

Neo eredeti hozzászólása:

NZL eredeti hozzászólása:

slag was good for swapping & maximizing dps and making the game less 1 click dimensional fest like bl1 one was. it was a good try on devs part to make combat more interesting.

Problem with slag is that on much higher levels it doesn't seem to last long enough on the target for even a weapon swap. Basically the mechanic prefers having at least 2 people. 1 person applying the slag while the other shoots. For solo it is a complete turn off.

i know for a fact it works with gunzerker builds fine the most op build in the game uses it.

[dontu_worry]

Neo eredeti hozzászólása:

NZL eredeti hozzászólása:

slag was good for swapping & maximizing dps and making the game less 1 click dimensional fest like bl1 one was. it was a good try on devs part to make combat more interesting.

Problem with slag is that on much higher levels it doesn't seem to last long enough on the target for even a weapon swap. Basically the mechanic prefers having at least 2 people. 1 person applying the slag while the other shoots. For solo it is a complete turn off.

Not a problem for most. Be quicker and improve your timing.

[Sin Archbishop of Vainglory]

makes UVHM and OP levels not fun at all if i have to constantly switch over and put a status effect on enemies just to out damage their regen. Slag on its own is great mechanic but forcing players to use it on the higher levels isnt fun at all.

[Bringoutyerded]

dontu_worry eredeti hozzászólása:

Neo eredeti hozzászólása:

Problem with slag is that on much higher levels it doesn't seem to last long enough on the target for even a weapon swap. Basically the mechanic prefers having at least 2 people. 1 person applying the slag while the other shoots. For solo it is a complete turn off.

Not a problem for most. Be quicker and improve your timing.

Problem is, the people against the game's mechanic still won't like it even if they do get quicker and improve their timing.

It's a game mechanic that forces them out of their comfort zone. To these people, it's just terrible game design for doing that.

This thought process of course ignores the many who have come to at least accommodate it and work with it over the years, quite successfully. Personally, I never really had an issue with it from the get-go - I found it kind of interesting, to be honest.

It's funny when TPS is brought up as a better example.

[La Gourde de Gaara]

I don't get what's difficult to understand.

It's basically a debuff that lowers defense.

Slagged = takes more damage

Not hard to understand, nothing special, nothing new.

[Neo]

Bringoutyerded eredeti hozzászólása:

dontu_worry eredeti hozzászólása:

Not a problem for most. Be quicker and improve your timing.

Problem is, the people against the game's mechanic still won't like it even if they do get quicker and improve their timing.

It's a game mechanic that forces them out of their comfort zone. To these people, it's just terrible game design for doing that.

This thought process of course ignores the many who have come to at least accommodate it and work with it over the years, quite successfully. Personally, I never really had an issue with it from the get-go - I found it kind of interesting, to be honest.

It's funny when TPS is brought up as a better example.

Playing as Zer0 solo, you don't get buffs on elemental weapons. Elemental debuffs on enemies barely last at all. Don't worry, I plenty fast. I can still get a sniper critical shot in the 1.5 seconds slag was applied. But it becomes such a chore. It is just too much to deal with solo especially going through digistruct peak.

[rogueKlyntar]

I thought Slag was a mess, but if you can use it, hey, why not? Slag grenades really helped on the Wedding Day Massacre DLC boss. It didn't cut it down by hours (it took me 3 to figure out what was going on, another 1 to get them both in a corner so I could always hit them at the same time) but certainly by about half an hour. But otherwise, yes Slag is useless.

[Bansheebutt]

Bringoutyerded eredeti hozzászólása:

It's a game mechanic that forces them out of their comfort zone. To these people, it's just terrible game design for doing that.

It's not really a "comfort zone" issue.

Micro-managing damage types just isn't that fun for some people.

I see it like the difference between Morrowind and Skyrim's combat. (Which I enjoy both ftr)

Morrowind requires that you carefully manage your stamina and have adequate training in your chosen combat style. High level enemies are literally impossible to defeat otherwise.

Skyrim just let's you bash away at anything you're brave enough to fight. It's perfectly possible to defeat the end game enemies at level one if you're patient enough.

Bringoutyerded eredeti hozzászólása:

To these people, it's just terrible game design for doing that.

Not terrible, just not enjoyable. A small but distinct difference and not mutually-exclusive.

A game(mode) can be both Well designed and not fun. And vice-versa.

[Bringoutyerded]

Neo eredeti hozzászólása:

Bringoutyerded eredeti hozzászólása:

Problem is, the people against the game's mechanic still won't like it even if they do get quicker and improve their timing.

It's a game mechanic that forces them out of their comfort zone. To these people, it's just terrible game design for doing that.

This thought process of course ignores the many who have come to at least accommodate it and work with it over the years, quite successfully. Personally, I never really had an issue with it from the get-go - I found it kind of interesting, to be honest.

It's funny when TPS is brought up as a better example.

Playing as Zer0 solo, you don't get buffs on elemental weapons. Elemental debuffs on enemies barely last at all. Don't worry, I plenty fast. I can still get a sniper critical shot in the 1.5 seconds slag was applied. But it becomes such a chore. It is just too much to deal with solo especially going through digistruct peak.

I've played a non-standard blended Zer0 solo at the Peak. Currently working on another now. I've not soloed a melee Zer0 to OP8 before, but have heard that it can be difficult over the last few runs for the reason you mention. I guess that it's for those portions of each run that you can handle in other ways, even though you can't change your build mid-stream for these.

dontu_worry has more experience as Zer0 than I.

I tend to favour Jakobs for a large part of my play with most toons, so elemental damage/debuffs aren't a thing for me in any case. I guess that early on I somehow accommodated slag into the repertoire, and don't really pay attention to it any longer. The biggest challenge when leveling is finding a good slagger that works for you; but that's a pretty minor point in the grand scheme of things. I tend to play with found gear.

I guess that I don't find it a chore.

Артём eredeti hozzászólása:

I don't get what's difficult to understand.

It's basically a debuff that lowers defense.

Slagged = takes more damage

Not hard to understand, nothing special, nothing new.

I don't think it's a problem with understanding. Some of those against it's inclusion see it as the game forcing them to do something they don't want to do. To them, this is poor design.

Some of these would simply like to go the bullet-sponge route.

Other alternatives have been suggested as well, but were any of these to be implemented in this or the next edition, the hew and cry over how difficult UVHM would still exist; perhaps even moreso.

Slag at least allows those of us who appreciate what the mode throws at the player and who have a desire for challenge and improvement to use non-trope gear successfully, even at the highest level.

[Starbug]

Slag forces you to take something new into account in UVHM.

Otherwise it's just nvhm with health regen. There's a wealth of options to impart the effect. Switching is only necessary if you've not investigated other ways to give baddies that beautiful purple aura.

[Bringoutyerded]

Bansheebot eredeti hozzászólása:

Bringoutyerded eredeti hozzászólása:

It's a game mechanic that forces them out of their comfort zone. To these people, it's just terrible game design for doing that.

It's not really a "comfort zone" issue.

Micro-managing damage types just isn't that fun for some people.

I see it like the difference between Morrowind and Skyrim's combat. (Which I enjoy both ftr)

Morrowind requires that you carefully manage your stamina and have adequate training in your chosen combat style. High level enemies are literally impossible to defeat otherwise.

Skyrim just let's you bash away at anything you're brave enough to fight. It's perfectly possible to defeat the end game enemies at level one if you're patient enough.

Bringoutyerded eredeti hozzászólása:

To these people, it's just terrible game design for doing that.

Not terrible, just not enjoyable. A small but distinct difference and not mutually-exclusive.

A game(mode) can be both Well designed and not fun. And vice-versa.

Bansheebot: There's really no resolution to this, we'll always disagree on this point. I can see that you refer to it as micromanaging damage types, but to me that fits under the umbrella of my "comfort zone" remark.

I've never played the games you mention, but Skyrim, at least based on your description, sounds like what can be achieved by the skilled in Dark Souls. There, both patience and skill are needed (the former I have in abundance).

I used the comment about terrible game design as it has been a common theme with some in this thread. I recognize that not everyone on your side of the fence perhaps feels this way to the same degree. The adjective could change. But ultimately, the end result wouldn't, would it?