Slag was the worst idea ever...

[Shevek]

I love the game but I don't know how the devs thought Slag was a good idea. I hope there won't be Slag on BL3. Am I a minority here? What vet Borderland players think of Slag?

[reptiliane]

Why don't you like slag?

[Bringoutyerded]

Originally posted by Balthair:

Slag was the worst idea ever...
I love the game but I don't know how the devs thought Slag was a good idea. I hope there won't be Slag on BL3. Am I a minority here? What vet Borderland players think of Slag?

Slag is an interesting game mechanic to me, one that I don't mind in the least. It offers a means of more easily handing baddies that would otherwise be considered bullet-sponges in UVHM by tripling the damage of your guns when active. It fits into the thin story, for what it's worth as well.

I like the fact that it forces you to rethink and plan your weapon groupings and how you approach mobs.

Someone here recently referred to thinking of it as a fifth element. This is a good way of thinking about it, except that unlike the other four, it's best applied first.

Were there no slag, baddies' health would simply be boosted in the third play through to increase the difficulty. They'd simply be bullet sponges like raid bosses, something few like.

UVHM is tougher for those that want the challenge. There's nothing saying that one needs to play in that mode.

[Starwight/ttv]

Originally posted by Bringoutyerded:

Originally posted by Balthair:

Slag was the worst idea ever...
I love the game but I don't know how the devs thought Slag was a good idea. I hope there won't be Slag on BL3. Am I a minority here? What vet Borderland players think of Slag?

Slag is an interesting game mechanic to me, one that I don't mind in the least. It offers a means of more easily handing baddies that would otherwise be considered bullet-sponges in UVHM by tripling the damage of your guns when active. It fits into the thin story, for what it's worth as well.

I like the fact that it forces you to rethink and plan your weapon groupings and how you approach mobs.

Someone here recently referred to thinking of it as a fifth element. This is a good way of thinking about it, except that unlike the other four, it's best applied first.

Were there no slag, baddies' health would simply be boosted in the third play through to increase the difficulty. They'd simply be bullet sponges like raid bosses, something few like.

UVHM is tougher for those that want the challenge. There's nothing saying that one needs to play in that mode.

But that's just it--it's not just a means to more easily handle bad guys. It's MANDATORY at UVHM to use. Meaning it limits the gameplay style people have, and it becomes a tedius chore REAL quick.

Besides, artificially increasing difficulty not by better AI, but by making bullet sponges, is just bad game design in general.

I LOVE Borderlands. That said, i am not immune to seeing it's flaws, and Slag is a huge one. They would do better making the AI a lot more intelligent at higher levels, rather than just making them literal bullet sponges. THAT is increasing difficulty.

Plus, then slagging everything you see doesn't become mandatory and force you to take a skill that lets you slag, or force you to carry a grenade mod you might not otherwise, just so you can slag--OR force you to carry a slag weapon to eat up inventory slots better served by other things.

So I hope Slag doesn't make its way to BL3. I'll deal with it, if it does. But that doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Starwight/ttv]

Originally posted by Random Hajile:

Slag sucks, one of the reasons I prefer TPS. UVHM is done right.

I love the PS, I think it gets a lot of unwarrented criticism.

[Metro]

Originally posted by Bringoutyerded:

UVHM is tougher for those that want the challenge. There's nothing saying that one needs to play in that mode.

There is nothing challenging about bullet-sponge enemies with rock/paper/scissors style of weaknesses. Borderlands 1 was more fun in that you could use whatever elemental weapon you wanted (and they could be boosted through the use of mod items). Borderlands 2, in an attempt to make more elements useful (I guess), made armored enemies require corrosive and boosted shields on a lot of stuff so that a shock weapon was sometimes required.

Then you add the slag requirement on top of that. It's dull and uncreative and hinders your ability to focus on particular elements. There are other ways to create challenges versus cranking up health that require binary responses to handle.

[Starwight/ttv]

Originally posted by Metro:

Originally posted by Bringoutyerded:

UVHM is tougher for those that want the challenge. There's nothing saying that one needs to play in that mode.

There is nothing challenging about bullet-sponge enemies with rock/paper/scissors style of weaknesses. Borderlands 1 was more fun in that you could use whatever elemental weapon you wanted (and they could be boosted through the use of mod items). Borderlands 2, in an attempt to make more elements useful (I guess), made armored enemies require corrosive and boosted shields on a lot of stuff so that a shock weapon was sometimes required.

Then you add the slag requirement on top of that. It's dull and uncreative and hinders your ability to focus on particular elements.

Ya know, i appreciate what Gearbox was trying to do. However, you nailed it right here. Want to play a fire elemental character? You can't because at very least you need shock to deal with shields and you need to deal with armor so you have to bring corrosive. You CAN get away with using Corrosive on both non armored and armored, but that is about where the diversity ends.

Then of course you HAVE to have slag, otherwise you won't deal enough damage at UVHM.

This is why I dislike the slag concept. I will still play BL2 and enjoy it, but I cringe every time I am forced to slag an enemy. It just limits your options, and makes it feel like if you aren't a meta build, you can't finish the game's hardest difficulty.

[Bringoutyerded]

Originally posted by alonesilverwolf:

Originally posted by Bringoutyerded:

...
UVHM is tougher for those that want the challenge. There's nothing saying that one needs to play in that mode.

But that's just it--it's not just a means to more easily handle bad guys. It's MANDATORY at UVHM to use. Meaning it limits the gameplay style people have, and it becomes a tedius chore REAL quick.

Besides, artificially increasing difficulty not by better AI, but by making bullet sponges, is just bad game design in general.

I LOVE Borderlands. That said, i am not immune to seeing it's flaws, and Slag is a huge one. They would do better making the AI a lot more intelligent at higher levels, rather than just making them literal bullet sponges. THAT is increasing difficulty.

Plus, then slagging everything you see doesn't become mandatory and force you to take a skill that lets you slag, or force you to carry a grenade mod you might not otherwise, just so you can slag--OR force you to carry a slag weapon to eat up inventory slots better served by other things.

So I hope Slag doesn't make its way to BL3. I'll deal with it, if it does. But that doesn't mean I have to like it.

Yes, it is often mandatory, but it's application can sometimes be handled without forcing you to use up one of your four slots if you don't want; think Maya and Ruin, slag grenade mods, Zer0's kunai.

Three questions for you:
1. How would you propose that the difficulty be increased in UVHM without it? Bigger mobs are one way for sure, but ultimately the best way is to do what is seen with raid bosses; simply increase their health pool by huge amounts.

2. This brings me to my other previous question - what says that you need to play in the mode where slag is necessary if you don't enjoy the mechanic? Why not stay in TVHM? What is different at OP8 that isn't there at 50?

3. Do you dislike gun switching in combat? You can get by with this in the first two play throughs by running with one or two weapons (the lame would do so with OP gear such as a Harold). It's more important to be able to switch guns on the fly appropriately in UVHM to counter the varied baddies you encounter during mobbing. Perhaps this is at the core of the issue for the dislike for some?

I agree, BL2 has it's flaws. Certainly. I just don't see slag as one of them, for the reasons that I previously stated.

[Bringoutyerded]

Originally posted by Random Hajile:

Slag sucks, one of the reasons I prefer TPS. UVHM is done right.

The TPS is fun too, for sure.

What purpose does cryo serve there?

[Bringoutyerded]

Originally posted by Metro:

Originally posted by Bringoutyerded:

UVHM is tougher for those that want the challenge. There's nothing saying that one needs to play in that mode.

There is nothing challenging about bullet-sponge enemies with rock/paper/scissors style of weaknesses. Borderlands 1 was more fun in that you could use whatever elemental weapon you wanted (and they could be boosted through the use of mod items). Borderlands 2, in an attempt to make more elements useful (I guess), made armored enemies require corrosive and boosted shields on a lot of stuff so that a shock weapon was sometimes required.

Then you add the slag requirement on top of that. It's dull and uncreative and hinders your ability to focus on particular elements. There are other ways to create challenges versus cranking up health that require binary responses to handle.

Ok. I guess we differ on what challenging is.

You prefer BL1, I prefer BL2.

BL2 makes you think, plan, and strategize more. Perhaps at the core this is the issue?

[Whiplash]

This is ultimately just "waaaaaahhh the game is too hard. make all games dumbed down and easy like I'm used to".

[Metro]

Originally posted by Bringoutyerded:

Originally posted by alonesilverwolf:

But that's just it--it's not just a means to more easily handle bad guys. It's MANDATORY at UVHM to use. Meaning it limits the gameplay style people have, and it becomes a tedius chore REAL quick.

Besides, artificially increasing difficulty not by better AI, but by making bullet sponges, is just bad game design in general.

I LOVE Borderlands. That said, i am not immune to seeing it's flaws, and Slag is a huge one. They would do better making the AI a lot more intelligent at higher levels, rather than just making them literal bullet sponges. THAT is increasing difficulty.

Plus, then slagging everything you see doesn't become mandatory and force you to take a skill that lets you slag, or force you to carry a grenade mod you might not otherwise, just so you can slag--OR force you to carry a slag weapon to eat up inventory slots better served by other things.

So I hope Slag doesn't make its way to BL3. I'll deal with it, if it does. But that doesn't mean I have to like it.

Yes, it is often mandatory, but it's application can sometimes be handled without forcing you to use up one of your four slots if you don't want; think Maya and Ruin, slag grenade mods, Zer0's kunai.

Three questions for you:
1. How would you propose that the difficulty be increased in UVHM without it? Bigger mobs are one way for sure, but ultimately the best way is to do what is seen with raid bosses; simply increase their health pool by huge amounts.

2. This brings me to my other previous question - what says that you need to play in the mode where slag is necessary if you don't enjoy the mechanic? Why not stay in TVHM? What is different at OP8 that isn't there at 50?

3. Do you dislike gun switching in combat? You can get by with this in the first two play throughs by running with one or two weapons (the lame would do so with OP gear such as a Harold). It's more important to be able to switch guns on the fly appropriately in UVHM to counter the varied baddies you encounter during mobbing. Perhaps this is at the core of the issue for the dislike for some?

I agree, BL2 has it's flaws. Certainly. I just don't see slag as one of them, for the reasons that I previously stated.

1) Add different abilities or attacks to mobs. Give them corrosive or exploding bullets, make them move faster, increase their AI ability to find cover/target you.

2) Dumb question. Only asked to justify the lazy design.

3) Mostly irrelevant since most characters in BL2 have a slag component to their action skill or can just use slag grenades.

The bottom line is that it is lazy and shallow design that makes UVHM more tedious than fun.

[Metro]

Originally posted by Whiplash:

This is ultimately just "waaaaaahhh the game is too hard. make all games dumbed down and easy like I'm used to".

Hardly, see answer #1. Slag itself is dumbed down design where a creative developer could have come up with alternatives.

[BAITness]

I would take cryo over slag any day. Where as the other elements are at least slightly situational, slag is a constant necessity.

It is one of the things TPS really improved on.

[DocStrangelove]

Slag sucks, getting rid of it was one of the things TPS got right. Didn't see any slag in the BL3 trailer either, so I hope it's gone for good.

[Bringoutyerded]

Originally posted by Metro:

1) Add different abilities or attacks to mobs. Give them corrosive or exploding bullets, make them move faster, increase their AI ability to find cover/target you.
...

Ok. Perhaps. Some mods do this, I can see this being interesting to a point. I can't speak to the AI as it was created in 2012; perhaps the state of AI at Gearbox couldn't have made that change at the time.

Originally posted by Metro:

...

2) Dumb question. Only asked to justify the lazy design.

...

How is the question dumb - how does it "justfy" what you see as lazy design? Is it dumb because it's hard to answer truthfully about capping your play in TVHM if you dislike UVHM?

Originally posted by Metro:

...
3) Mostly irrelevant since most characters in BL2 have a slag component to their action skill or can just use slag grenades.

The bottom line is that it is lazy and shallow design that makes UVHM more tedious than fun.

When I asked if you disliked gun switching in my third question, how is this question irrelevant?

I already mentioned the same "slag components" to action skills or slag grenades that you state here. Since we both agree with this, what is the issue with applying slag since you don't need to expend much effort in doing so? You can use all four slots for non-slag weapons.

Originally posted by Metro:

...

The bottom line is that it is lazy and shallow design that makes UVHM more tedious than fun.

Then why play UVHM? Again - what exists at OP8 that doesn't exist at 50?

If your answer continues to be "lazy design", that runs counter to many who continue to enjoy this game after playing it for years.

If lazy design is the issue, why play a game at a level you dislike?