Why everyone hate Lilith?!

[Victini Trainer]

Okay I heard it all. Handsome Jack good. He was a hero until Lilith punched him. But are you forgetting he enslaved his daughter before BL1 and he been planning all this way before BL1? BLTPS was supposed to make to see a side of Jack and make you believe he was good. That was the point. The closer you got,the more you see the true Jack. Plus it was Moxxie who hired Lilith and Roland to stop Jack. People believe Jack would would have done great things, No I don't see that at all. He was twisted already. He was already mad for power. He just got worse. Don't blame Lilith, Blame Moxxie. But don't Blame her too. Jack was evil. Everyone saw it who knew him. Moxxie knew well. The game did it's job. It made you like Jack and it convinced you hat he was good at the start. It was good writing, But I think it made some fans alittle blind to the facts in BL2.

[Victini Trainer]

The Rebels are the bad guys. The Empire just wants to bring Peace and Order. Said the guy who started a War to get him to be Leader of the Republic and kill off a religion so no one stands in his way to rule.

[Cosmic Cat]

Those who wrote that Vaulthaunters only kill bandits, haven't you played Marriage Massacre? You kill a lot of "innocent" Zafords and Hodunks there.

[Victini Trainer]

Originally posted by Woob:

Those who wrote that Vaulthaunters only kill bandits, haven't you played Marriage Massacre? You kill a lot of "innocent" Zafords and Hodunks there.

Did you forget the bride and Groom tried killing you? And Ellie made you do it and I would say they are innocent. But Ellie old you to do i and hey. Moxxie fixing it, In a way they did. They teamed up to fight you for killing the Bride and Groom. I know he story in the back of my hand.

[deadsmoke]

Maybe Jack wasn't evil in TPS but he was still a total jerk.

[RationalBeast]

hating on Lilith? okay some of you fans need to step away from the keyboard and get some fresh air.

[dHeX ⛤]

Jack was driving by power and didn't care who he had to step on to get it, that defines a psychopath. Evil? Maybe not, but not good either.

Lilith was originally driven by greed, and if it wasn't for her (and the other VHs) greed, none of this would have happened :)

[Jean]

Nobody hate Lilith. A few edgelords are doing their thing, trying too hard as usual. It's the norm nowadays to have a group trying to normalize evil figures and organizations, with varying levels of commitment to the lolz.

[Zeon08]

Jack is prety much Griffith.

[solidfact42]

Don't know if this thread has played itself out yet, but I'd like to put my two-cents in, if I may.

Yeah, there's a certain amount of Lilith hate and a surprising amount of...call it support for Jack. Partially, I think it may have to do with the urge to be contrary to what the writers want you to think regarding who the hero and who the villain is, but I can see several points being made.

My take on Lilith: she's good, but flawed. Her problem is that she's ruled far too much by her emotions and perhaps doesn't think things through before going forward with them. We see this in how easy she is to bait by Jack, her actions at the moment he's viewing the prophecy, her orders to execute Athena after she's finished the full story of what happened in the pre-sequel, etc. Lilith needed Roland, the ultimate strategist and logical thinker at the cost of his emotional connectivity, to balance her. With him gone, she's gonna need to learn to control herself or she and the rest will be easy prey.

Now for Jack: I've heard the arguments that he is some sort of hero figure or at least was good-intentioned at the start, but it doesn't scan. You get his personality as the story of the pre-sequel unfolded and he was egomaniacal, borderline sociopathic, and paranoid before he even met Lilith. You see this build with his reaction to Huxter (just before his untimely end) and watch it come to a head when Jack disposes of the R&D team even at the suspicion that one of them might be a mole. Look at it this way: Zarpadon was trying to destroy Elpis and would have destroyed a fair amount of Pandora as well. Jack was in prime position to make a boatload of money and get a massive amount of resources from both. Besides, no Pandora, no eridium. Naturally he had to convince various people to help him in order to keep both in existence and so he told them what they wanted to hear. It's not like he minds helping some people if it means that it helps him, and in the same way he doesn't mind getting rid of them when he no longer has need of them. Just consider his treatment of Claptrap at the end of Claptastic Voyage.

But what do I know? I'm just one guy with an opinion.

[Casurin]

Originally posted by trukr:

No, he said that before any one other than ol Zarp tried to kill him.

,Goes to show that you do not know the story......nothing more to talk when you can not even get the basics right.

Originally posted by trukr:

What do you think cleaning the planet of bandits means? You know, to him, anyone not with him is a bandit, right? Zarpadon, just look at her. She is a mess, she thinks she is doing the right thing, like Jack thinks he is right.

And just a bit earlier you said killing bandiots was the right thing.............. why do you change your morals when it comes to Jack? Oh, when YOU do it is is allowed but when Jack does it it is evi? XDD

Originally posted by Casurin:

Lilith is not pure, but she is nothing like Jack. Jack, is still responsible for Jack, he doesn't get to play the victim card.

So no answer? So Lilith is not Evil because... nothing.


So you have shwon you are using doublestandards and do not know the story of the game. Congratulation - you are a moron.

[[MM] Cpt_Mustard]

are any of you forgetting how Athena redeemed herself and explained the whole situation infront of everyone, but Lillith still decided to kill her from a firing squad, even tho Brick and Mordi were against it?

It was because Lillith realized how much damage she caused out of HER stubborness, so out of anger of her realization and Rolands death, it's pretty obvious at this point. Sirens are on a constant period, kek

[Twitch]

Originally posted by Krim Son:

it's pretty obvious at this point. Sirens are on a constant period, kek

OMG that is actually pretty profound arguement... Who said females aren't fairly represented in vidya gaems

[Lady Crimson (RIP)]

Originally posted by Juice-Canister:

Originally posted by Casurin:

Well he wasn't - simple as that.
TPS depics why jack became obsessed with power, why he became so ruthless, but he wasn't evil.
In BL2 it is still jack that tries to bring back law and order to Pandora. The crimson Raiders - as the name already tells you - are criminals. heck, that is even the very first thing you learn about them and Sancutaury form them self.

Jacks methods are tyranical and he is willing to sacrifice quite a few people for the perceived greater good, but claiming he is evil?

Lilith and the other vaulthunters are just as ruthless, just as willing to go over corpses on mass.

Jack was ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up to begin. You see hints of it throughout the game. One being with the claptrap saying "how it was kind of cool how it died", and when he went insane with the Mayor dude.

Wouldn't say it was greater good all of the times he tortured random people for the sake of it either, he's one of the most blatantly evil characters there is with his general glee for torture.. how is this even an argument less someone is just ignoring the game he was in.

[nihilistninja]

As others have mentioned, the majority of Lilith hate seems to come from a strange group of Jack sympathisers. Not all of it but most.

It seems largely based on Jack's representation in TPS. Some people seem to view that as a story of Jack's slide into evil with the final pushes being Moxxie and Lilith's betrayal of Jack destroying the Destroyer's eye (strangely they don't seem to hold Roland equally responsible) and Lilith scarring Jack when she destroyed the Vault relic.

This version of events ignores much of Jack's prior history and characterisation.

Long before the events of TPS Jack had enslaved his daughter. He was responsible for leading the original vault hunters around by the nose throughout the entire first game to bring about the vault opening and the eridium explosion. He was already experimenting with eridium exposure and slag before TPS (possibly even with Angel) and had weaponised the Destroyer's eye. And had possibly destroyed Moxxie's Underdome as petty revenge for breaking up with him.

Jack had a long term game plan to take control of Hyperion and enact his 'civilisation' on Pandora.

Jack's story in TPS is less a story of a hero falling but of a villain stopping hiding behind his mask.

Lilith wasn't the one responsible for betraying Jack by destroying the Eye, that was Moxxie and Roland. The moment Jack spaced the scientists Lilith immediately wanted to leave and have nothing further to do with Jack, it was Roland that convinced her to stick around. The 'betrayal' only happened after these three came to the opinion that they couldn't trust Jack with a weapon like the Eye.

It was Moxxie that attempted to have Jack killed in the explosion with the TPS vault hunters as collateral. And she was the one that knew him the best out of all the characters in the game up until that point (barring Angel). Roland and Lilith were complicit, but they weren't the ones pulling the strings and Roland was responsible for bringing Lilith around to his point of view.

Lilith's only attack on Jack was after he was already interacting with the relic and by this point it was clear, to me at least, that Jack was already showing his true villainous colours.

Lilith has plenty of failings throughout her appearances. She's over-confident, headstrong, frequently thoughtless and easily swayed by her emotions. I don't agree with the people that claim that she doesn't show empathy as she is shown as very caring to the rest of her friends and even worries about the lives of civilians and innocents.

The only people she is callous to are her enemies and bandits, and the entire rest of the cast holds the same positions here so holding Lilith uniquely responsible for this attitude is hypocritical.

The other thing that people hold her responsible for is her order to execute Athena, which is fair, but given the proximity of this event to Roland's death and her period of capture and torture under Jack* I think it's expected that she is not making rational decisions at the time.

* Quote - Lilith has quite the little mouth on her - and, as it turns out, when that Eridium is pumping through her body, I can stab her over and over and over and it just heals right back up. (beat) I’m told it’s agonising. Oh, she looks pissed.

So no, Lilith is actually one of the more moral vault hunters. Which might not be saying much as to the standards of most of our society they're all shades of grey.

In the end I don't have a problem with people disliking or even hating Lilith, but some of the reasoning is pretty poor, either holding her uniquely responsible for callousness towards bandits or for these three events, betraying Jack at the Eye of Helios, attacking Jack in the Vault on Elipsis or wanting to have Athena executed.

[Victini Trainer]

I agree with nearly alll but one user. All what you say is true but in different point if views. I already stated Lilith isn't perfect and one of you said better then what I have explained. Yes Jack was written well and that's why I compared him to The Joker. Also named Jack. A character that was evil bu given a backstory in the 80's. A man who had a wife and lost everything then become The Joker. Jack had childhood abuse and maybe his Wife did keep him sane. Unil her death he may have had his own view on love of Angel. Remember he been putting her on that chair when she was LITTLE. She even said Where is Mommy. So Jack been doing to his daughter just as his wife died or vanished. Maybe she knew Jack was doing this. So if you think Jack is a good guy and a Hero then look in his past.