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Okay ... well.. Wilhelm is a boss, he's going to be functionally two levels above you. So, you can't really count bosses, by design, they're supposed to be higher level than you.
A Train To Catch starts at level 13, but you're expected to level at least once or twice in the process of clearing the Tundra Express (additionally, Lilith has a mission (Mine All Mine) in the Tundra Express that won't open up until after you first go there, meaning you have to go there, and then go back to Sanctuary to see that mission (and if you haven't actually talked to Lilith recently, she may have a couple of other missions too)).
You're also expect to do the You Are Cordially Invited Tea Party questline while you're there. And No Hard Feelings.
There's also two other side missions that send you back into the Blood Shot Dam, which become available at the same time.
Do you mean The Highlands?
By the time you reach The Highlands, you're expected to be in the 16-18 range. Some of the Badass Threshers might be that high level, yes.
Especially Old Slappy, who is again, a boss, and is supposed to be (at least) two levels above you.
It STARTS at level 19, yes. You're expected to level to 21-22 in the process of completing it.
Again, that's mostly just the way you chose to play the game. The only things that I see that are over my level are bosses. But I do most of the side quests during Normal.
(Well, I do a lot of side quests. I despise the Hodunks, and I actually don't care for the Zafords much either, so I don't tend to do the Clan War very often. And in my most recent playthroughs, I don't usually bother going to Lynchwood or doing any of the quests there either. And I STILL end up in the 33-35 range at the end of the final story mission).
Anyway, the solution to your problem is to do more side quests, and do them earlier.
https://borderlands.fandom.com/wiki/Borderlands_2_mission_flow
Note that the wiki will contain spoilers.
It's not really a question of whether you're happy or not. Some skills are actually better than others, and some have synergies that may not be obvious right away. I'm not going to say that some skills are objectively superior, but there is a fairly strong player consensus on most of the skills for most of the characters.
You can find a good overview of what works well for Krieg here:
https://forums.gearboxsoftware.com/t/ddd-kriegs-skills-for-you/25707
There's a DDD guide up on the Gearbox site for each character class.
- Not all character classes are created equal, some classes are harder to solo with than others. I prefer to play solo and with 200+ hours between this and my console copy, I never maxed out a psycho. The class frustrated me also.
- Try changing the skill point tree choices you made on your character. It can make a huge difference.
- If you get the right weapon drop, 4 levels can be negated. just a few weeks ago, in BL3 I got to a boss and I thought "There is no way..." and not long after, I got a new weapon that allowed me to take it down in like a minute.
- If you are enjoying the game*otherwise* Just run through a few areas you already did, to add a few levels and maybe some loot and hit it back up. As a veteran of the series going back to the very first, I've always had to do *some* backtracking to level and loot up at various points in any given title. Usually, before major boss fights.
Sorry it's been a while. I should say that I am now 22 hours in, so...
UPDATE TIME
So I have finished my mission in the Wildlife Preservation Reserve, and let me tell you...that boss fight at the end was awesome. Unlike that garbage pile Wilhelm, that wasn't bad at all.
Since then, I have been flying through the main missions. Didn't need to level myself up as the levels for these quests weren't jumping up, and I was already at their levels anyway.
I have finished the mission to get Brick back to sanctuary. Just now, I found to be nearly level 22 and did some quests in The Dust (pretty good that that area scaled up). The next story mission is level 21 as well, so what could go wrong?
So yes, I am 22 hours in, and I am now level 22. Game has got nicer all the sudden, or maybe I'm finding great weapons. Either way, I'm blasting my way through this. The helicopter enemies are a pain to aim at, though.
Still, I appreciate all the responses. So thank you so much for persuading me to not give up, because I was so very nearly close to doing so.
Keep slaughtering and have fun!
Thanks for the note!
That fight at the end of the WEP can be a pretty tough one.
I finished the game with my character being level 31 and about 33/34 hours in. I have to say, I had two people join me in the final fight so that all ended quickly. Plus, someone skipped the credits right as they started. That was probably the fastest I ever made a game finish.
And... I think I'm gonna leave it at that.
To be honest, I don't love this game. It's just decent.
Now, there is frantic fun to be had, but half the time I just found it annoying, if anything.
For starters, the UI is a nuisance. Took me forever to get used to the menus to begin with, and it's still a bit of a chore now. Why does my character have to block a good chunk of the right hand side of the menu?
But anyways, the problems I mentioned about the game in the opening comment are still there. I really hate how the game enforces you to level up so you're up to speed. I still find levelling up to be kind of slow, especially when your time gets wasted by either dying and going back to a checkpoint far away from where you were, or when you have to backtrack through an entire area just to do one thing, especially when it is easy to get lost like in Frostbite Canyon.
It just really destroys the pacing of the experience. One minute you have friends several levels higher than you and you fly through a zone, the next minute you don't know what to do because you hardly have any side quests that are close to your level to gain experience. I know it's down to how I play, but the pacing is all over the place.
Dying is a nuisance as well, especially when you are fighting a tough enemy alone, get them to low health, and then having to start the fight all over again. Plus, why is it so difficult to get good loot? You'd think by crushing many enemies, they's drop more stuff.
So, yeah, maybe I rushed into it a little but I just wanted to get through it, this game didn't grab my attention enough to want me to immerse in it. It just gets tiresome having to do multiple side quests and run through areas defeating enemies again just to get anywhere.
This is without a doubt one of the hardest video games I have ever played. Except that unlike games that are difficult by design (which I have played plenty of), this one was difficult because it was frustrating, and the game is always one step ahead of you. There could have been better ways to allow players to level up quickly. You get as much experience from quests as defeating like 20 enemies.
I'm done with this game. For now, I am not going to play the DLC, I am not going to try New Game Plus, and I am certainly not interested in playing the Pre-Sequel game. I just did not find it all that fun or enjoyable. I won't be touching this game again any time soon.
Once again, thanks for your responses. At least it has provided me some courage to get through it. There was just little fun to be had. Shame.
If you just play to level up and get on with the main questline, which is fair we all play in different ways, I understand why you personally didn't enjoy it. Many of the things you take issue with are things I enjoy with the game, farming loot, sidequests, getting wrecked by a cool boss. It's down to personal preference, you tried it out and it wasn't for you.
That's perfectly fair, it's not a game for everyone (for a variety of reasons). I personally think it's one of the best ARPGs ever made. But ARPGs tend to be my favorite type of game (these days).
Yes, the game world can be quite large and confusing. But honestly, I like that. Richard Bartle offered a basic matrix of MUD players (years and years ago), he labeled his basic types: Killer, Achiever, Socializer, and Explorer. He's since made a much more complex matrix of gamers, but you can find lots of versions of his early test online, and they'll still tell you a bit about what sort of a gamer you are.
Personally, I'm an Explorer, with a little bit of Achiever and Socializer thrown in (and pretty much no Killer at all, which is why I tend to hate PvP games).
As for the leveling aspect, well... that's kind of how these games go too. The focus is meant to be on the moment to moment combat, everything else is just there to help you get from one combat to the next.
As for the checkpoint reset thing, that's also fairly common in the sub-genre. Most ARPGs have highly randomized loot drops (and BL2 is no exception), so the zones all respawn upon reload. They do this in order to give you multiple chances at certain sets of loot. For ARPGs, it's generally considered a feature.
Well, some of that is knowledge of the game. As I've said before, I never have that experience (when I replay the game). But I know it pretty well, so I know where to find all of the various side quests. The game doesn't necessarily do the best job of letting you know where to find the various side quests.
You SHOULD stumble across them all eventually, but some you won't find until a bit later than you might have liked (unless you already know about them).
As I said, there are enough side quests in just the base game (without any of the DLC content) to get you to 35ish (at least), and 30 is the target for finishing the main story.
The game type isn't for everyone, and that's okay.
That's just the RNG. Sometimes you get good stuff, sometimes you don't. I've had runs (through Normal mode) where I found half a dozen legendaries. I've had other runs where I found none.
But also, that's still knowledge of the game, and knowledge of you yourself like to play. Lots of the guns that drop are perfectly viable, even if they're "only" white rarity. I have a run I did where I specifically limited myself to "white" rarity gear only (and no skill points either). It wasn't my favorite experience with the game, but it did teach me a lot about how viable most of the drops are.
See, for me (and for those who really like the game) those are the fun parts. The target niche really likes the iterations of fighting, and enjoys going over it again and again.
Like I say, it's not a game type that appeals to everyone.
It's a game that typically appeals to those who lean more towards a Hunter-Mind, than those who lean more towards a Farmer-Mind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_vs._farmer_hypothesis
Ahh... you were playing Normal mode. The game has three difficulty modes. TVHM is noticeably more difficult than Normal, and UVHM is vastly more difficult than even THVM. Beyond that there are the OP levels (and the map called Digistruct Peak).
Again, that's the fun part for the target player.
Well, I'm glad you stuck it out, but I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it. As I say, it's one of my personal favorites of all time, but I do understand that the sub-genre isn't for everyone.
I'd be curious as to what sorts of games you've personally enjoyed in the past. I've played lots of stuff and might be able to offer a few suggestions of similar stuff.
I didn't really experience this. hmmm. I think i would do a side quest or two to make sure I was at lvl or above lvl as the story line. It gets really unforgiving if you are lower level.
I am definitely a killer and an achiever. I don't know what a socializer is, and I like to explore when the situation calls for it.
Grinding doesn't bother me that much, but I prefer games that allow you to grind only if you want to, not where it's a necessity. I just find it a waste of time and a pace killer, unless grinding comes naturally, in which case that gives the game a steady pace. This game doesn't.
Funny you say that considering you put nearly 2000 hours into Borderlands 2 alone.
Anyway, I don't know if you can see my library of games, but that should give you a good idea. Funnily enough, I played lots of ARPGs and I really like most of them.
The Witcher 3 is my favourite. This game did right what Borderlands 2 didn't. Smooth natural progression, many ways to level up your character without being restricted, and it's at no point frustrating. In fact, I liked it so much I purchased the DLC, and they were the icing on the cake - absolutely brilliant.
But yeah, I play a lot of action games. I'm particularly fond of platforming games, 2D specifically. Souls-like games are in my forte as well (yeah, I know, that kind of gameplay appeals to a particular niche, but I am fond of it). I need to try Code Vein and Star Wars: Jedi Fallen Order when I get the chance.
I do like other RPGs besides ARPGs: Undertale, Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga, Earthbound. I haven't played a lot of games where grinding is necessary. Dragon Quest IV: Sentinels of the Starry Skies is the last one I can remember. I never got round to finish it because of the grinding, but I did enjoy it.
I quite open when it comes to genres. I recently got into the Danganronpa series, I'm gonna start V3 soon. But, yeah, I hope that helps.
Socializers like to do stuff together. Online games are seen as a vehicle for inter-personal interaction (for them). A lot of the games with player housing and heavily customizable avatars are aimed at them. Socializers are also part of what makes things like MOBAs and MMOs work. Doing stuff together is more important than what you're doing. (That's not to say that what they're doing isn't important (to greater or lesser degrees) but the fact that they're doing it together is the dominate factor).
For me, I like to explore. I like big open world environments with content in every direction. Most game worlds seem tiny to me (and empty, and limited). An example of a game world that didn't would be Skyrim, which is huge, and has stuff all over (and has dynamic scaling). Other examples tend to be more survival oriented games, like The Long Dark, or Conan Exiles. I loved Dragon Age: Origins, (for the story and the world building) but every time you went into an "outside" area, the fact that you were trapped in a tiny Skinner box became painfully obvious to me. That's also part of why I hated Diablo 3, because the environments were so tiny and so repetitive.
A big part of Bartle's point was that you can't build a game to focus exclusively on a single player type. The most viable MUDs (at the time he was doing research on them), were the types that catered to all the different player types (to greater and lesser extents, but still ...). Mind you, BL2 is intended primarily as a solo play (with optional co-op), PvE game, so ... it's not really covered by what he was researching. The variety of games (and the niche targeting) has increased a lot since the time he was doing his early writing.
Hmm... I'm not really sure what you mean. Lots of games have some sort of grinding in them, whether they be solo or group play. I don't personaly find BL2 to require much in the way of "grinding" during Normal or TVHM. There is "grinding" involved in higher level play, because as you reach the limits of the game, you have to min-max your gear more to continue.
But like I said, I know the game pretty well, and know where to find all the side quests. I think it's a legitimate complaint to say that the game does a poor job of communicating where to find stuff to the first-time player, and can leave them with the feeling of inconsistent pacing that you experienced.
That said, do you have any examples of games where you felt the "grinding" aspect was well handled? I'm still not quite sure exactly how you see that fitting into game play. I know what I mean by "grinding" but I guess what I'm saying is I'm not as sure what you mean by it.
Hah! You say that, but honestly, for the forum regulars here in the BL2 forum, I'm a light-weight. Since the release of BL3 (and the arrival of a bunch of new players who insist on talking about BL3 here), many of the normal BL2 players are avoiding the forum, or taking a break, or whatever, but there was a community (of maybe 40 or 50 people?) who posted off and on. Some of them had on the order of 5000-6000 hours put into BL2. (And were usually much, much better players than I am).
I can't actually see your games, I'm not sure if that's because of the way your profile is set or if it's just Steam being recalcitrant.
I've tried playing Witcher 3, but I found the UI confusing. I suppose I should try it again.
I know that the Witcher series is considered an "action" style game, but it's not really what I think of when I say ARPG. When I say ARPG, I'm thinking of games like: Diablo, Diablo 2 (and D2:LOD), Torchlight, Torchlight2, Grim Dawn, Path of Exile, or any of the Borderlands games(BL1, BL2, and BL:TPS). (Technically, Diablo 3 and BL3 fit into this category too, but I'm not sure they're the best examples of the sub-genre (to be fair, I haven't personally played BL3 yet, and probably won't until long after it's been released on Steam, and has been put on sale)).
Hmm... Some platformers look like great games, but I was never particularly good at them, and sadly, the older I get the more my reflexes decline. I love the art style on Hollow Knight (for example), and I've heard wonderful things about the game, but ... I can't get very far into it, I just can't manage the jumping necessary. The most "platformer" style game I've enjoyed is probably Starbound, and I tend to avoid the most "platform-like" aspects of it (the challenge zones) and stick to the exploration and building portions.
Inmost and Timespinner both look like great games too, but I don't think I'll even bother to try (after my recent failed attempt at Hollow Knight).
The Dark Souls series is something I've been considering picking up.
I think Fallout 4 is supposed to be a similar type of game to the Witcher games.
Hmm, I don't have any experience with most of those.
When I was younger, I enjoyed the interface between story and game that many of the traditional RPGs focus on, but as I've gotten older, I tend to want those to be more separate. If I want a story, then I want a story, and I'll read a book (I burn through a lot of books). But when I want a game, I want to be "active" (for the given value of "active" that a game offers), so I tend to drift more towards ARPGs (like the ones I listed above).
I do still play some more turn-based and/or story focused games.
Darkest Dungeon for example, or the Divinity: Original Sin series. Or experimental games, like Cultist Simulator, or Sunless Sea.
Although, most frequently, if I'm gaming, it's because I want to kill some monsters (or bad guys), and I don't feel the need for much more than a minimal story to pull me along.
Normally wouldn't use slag in normal mode, but when your levels lower, you get used to using it in combat. Normally fight some strong badass war loader you can do just fine blasting it with a corrosive sniper rifle, but its a few levels higher so i need to slag it first then finish it off. Still easy to do, but isn't a cakewalk that it might be if im trying to kill a war loader at level 24-25 instead of my level 21ish with stronger weapons/shields.
or heck, trying to do it with Zero with a strong turtle shield that drops my health, and i have 350 health if my shields go down lol. Have to use better tactics, better shooting. Sure my shield is 5000 but that can go down fast being hit with multiple strong foes, leaving my 350 health pool as piddling to last before i can 2nd wind it.
Having stronger foes means you learn stuff that benefits you. Better tactics, better use of your relics, mods, abilities, etc. So you might die a few times more than you would if you were equal levels in the areas, not a huge deal you just lose a bit of money. Its a learning experience. Oh, a badass constructor just appeared.. What to do, what to do..