Jack is NOT A VILLAIN Explained.

[Маэстро]

I can explain it. Apologies, for my mistakes and grammar misspelings. A wall of text incoming, which is totally my NOT SO HUMBLE opinion.

Too Long; Didn't Read: I'm not saying, that we are antagonists, and we always been "bad". Brick & Mordecai are good people in BL storyline, but Lilith is a ♥♥♥♥♥. "Original" Vault Hunters not ruined everything, but Lilith, Roland & Moxxi was the problem. I believe that it is very incompetent on the part of Lilith and Roland to create a whole clan and create destruction simply because they have puzzled and can not apologize and at least try to offer a compromise. They simply didn't seek peace and made decisions based on their own narrow judgments.

Let's go.

We should start from BL:TPS, especially from start of it. We can see Lilith, Brick, Mordecai and Athena. Lilith asking Athena about her past, while Crimson Raiders are ready to shoot her. Story have benn told by Athena, and you could've notice, that Brick and Mordecai are listening her story and I don't think, that they are enemies with her. Lilith, though, acting like an enemies(but they are not, because of TPS) and want Brick & Mordecai to act like her. First check.

(there supposed to be full plot analysis, but I'm kinda lazy to do it, just gonna do an end and consequence)

"Suddenly, Lilith appears and beats on the mark, leaving a seal on Jack's face in the form of the Vault sign and missing. Athena unfolds, leaves and explains in reality:

Athena: ... And at that moment the hero who saved us on "Helios" died. And my contract with Handsome Jack was canceled.

Lilith: Do you regret working for him?

Athena: Yes. And now act as you know.

Lilit: Kill her.

Mordcai: What ?!

Brick: NO!

Lilith: If it were not for people like her, our friends would still be alive! Aim ...

Brick: Lil, we're not like that! YOU are not like that!

Lilith: FIRE!

(shots)

Lilith: What the hell?"

And then Guardian appears and saying that war is coming and sh!t gonna hit the fan.


It is difficult not to agree with Athena in the sense that Jack was a hero, but he ceased to be.

The point here is not even in something subconscious. The answer lies on the surface - betrayal. Jack left exactly from the moment when the Eye of helios was destroyed, because he trusted Moxxi, Roland and Lilith, and received a blow in the back.
You do not even need to "wonder what would have happened" if this same setup were not there, so it's clear that everything would be fine, and Jack would destroy the gangster settlements. Neither New Haven or Fyrestone.
However, here and so do "heroes" - unleash a war simply because it seems to them that their ally is too strong.
In addition, this is the behavior of Moxxi, Lilith and Roland from that moment and for them means that they ceased to be heroes. Prior to this event, they, just like Jack, did only good, we can say, things - they helped people, opened the Vault, killed the monster and all that kind of stuff. Since that moment, nothing really good has been done on their part.

There is the questions, coming out from BL2 storyline:

Why Jack wanted to kill BL2 Vault Hunters & Why Angel hated him, if he was a hero.

First question is shady enough, that I simply didn't found an answer to it.
But the second question is a great enough.

All of us were capricious children, then presumptuous and not very balanced teenagers. Someone - more, someone - less. Angel, in character, has not yet grown. She doesn't see the whole picture and can not imagine it. Jack loves her like any other fathers love their daughters. The problem is that the Angel passes exactly the age when she is irritable and unbalanced. Because of this, Jack can not communicate with her normally, and the relationship they have, if you can say, sometimes business, and sometimes, according to Angel, slavish. If you take our life as example - we all know that very often the girls and boys from 16 to 18 years leave home for a couple of hours, days or months. In addition to what I have already stated above, Angel is about the age of 17 years, if we take a look at her face.
And now you want to ask - since Jack is not a fool, not a madman, then why does not he let her go for a couple of days, stay alone and think? And because he is neither a fool nor a fool. Where will he let her go from his home? Do they have friends to whom you can go and spend the night? And indeed, in the end, Pandora is swarming with bandits! Just as gangsters, and Crimson Raiders and the Vault Hunters.
And, accordinglyto that, Angel wants to leave the house for a couple of days, slamming the door, and Jack realizes that either she will be killed by thugs or she kills bandits. In general, it will become uncultured and a murderer, or vice versa, she will be killed, and even worse.
Jack himself explains that after the Angel killed her own mother, she could no longer control her powers, so he imprisoned her.
In short, Angel fusses, Jack wants the best, but at the end we got what we got...

[Cheggf]

I'm effectively going to give up on you, effectively effective immectivadively.

[Twitch]

you say that now but we both know you'll give me a booty call at 2am.

[boneknocker]

at first yes (back in BL1.5) he is a good guy who try to make thing right. but in the end he become a mad man (in BL2)....rip jack.

[Mister Torgue Flexington]

Postat inițial de trukr:

What? Really? No, Jack is a very bad person.

Borderlands, the four vault hunters go to Pandora to search for a Vault, because of loot, get rich. Not one of them is shown to be a criminal. Try just walking about on Pandora, how many out there don't shoot you? Go to New Haven and no one shoots at you, other than the bandits outside of the town.

In this time Atlas was the big dogs around, they drove DAHL out, over time Hyperion would do the same to Atlas. When DAHL pulled out, they left many people behind, not all of them were bad people, some were convict labor, but many were like Tanis.

Jack, sent a Hyperion satellite to Pandora without permission from his boss. Jack was just a lowly code monkey then. He tricked the vault hunters to get them to open the vault. He knew there was no loot there, he wanted to unleash the large supply of Eridum to get rich.

The Vault Hunters did not work for Jack then, they did not know who he was, but Angel was used to fool the Vault Hunters.

Jack scoops a man's eyes out with a spoon and laughs about the kids crying.

He tells Helena Pierce to tell him why her face looks like she head butted a belt sander and he will let them all go, the proceeds to blow her head off and order the killing of everyone else (looked like civilians trying to escape the fighting).

Jack does slag experimentation on people as well as animals.

He lied, cheated and murdered his way to the top at Hyperion.

He destroyed the entire CL4P-TP product line except for Claptrap, because his code was
changed, but shot him with the intent to destroy him.

He locked Angel up and pumped iridium in to her, for all intents ending her life.

He may well be the reason Angel's mother is not around, maybe he killed her so he could use Angel to charge the Vault Key. Angel's power was what, control technology, like open a door for you, drop Sanctuary's shields. So what did she do to her mother, shut her phone off?

Jack turned a civilian space station in to a military style space station.

The Eye of Helios was not self defense. He said he could wipe out entire bandit encampment with it. What does he call a bandit, anyone who is not with him, not just real bandits.

He spaced his scientist because one of them remotely could be against him.

I can tell you that there are people who had bad things happen to them as a child that did not turn out like Jack. The hard childhood is no excuse.

Mordi, he showed up to hunt for a Vault, for loot. He fell in to drinking because of bad times, but in the Son of Crawmerax we find he is sober and has a new bird.

Brick, went to Pandora in search of the Vault and loot. No information on him doing anything bad to anyone but those who would attack him.

Rolland, the closest thing to an honest to goodness good man on Pandora. Don't know of any criminal past. As far as I know and honorable military past. He understood in the times between Borderlands and Borderlands 2 (TPS) that you keep your friends close, your enemies closer. He saw how bad Jack was but took the wait for an opertunity to present itself rather than be rash.

Lilith, like the others went to Pandora to find the Vault and loot. She saw what Jack was but was held in check by Rolland, to wait for the right time.

Zer0, an assassin. This can look bad, but who were his targets, did he take on jobs other than to take out bad people. I don't know.

Maya, she was raised in a monastery by someone who used her as a tool to keep people in fear for power and money. She killed him, I call that a good kill. She went to Pandora because she heard about Sirens being there and wished to learn about Sirens, people like her. She ended up becoming a Vault Hunter.

Salvador. His "crime" was killing bandits that were trying to kill him. No information on him before that, so no information on him being a bad person.

Axton, this one I call bad. A glory hound who used the people he was paid to protect as bait. His trip to Pandora was to avoid being executed for his crimes.

Krieg, he was experimented on with slag by Jack/Hyperion. His inner voice tells him, if he ever harms an innocent he will end him.

Gaige, she went to Pandora because DT killed Marcy when she shoved Gaige, a defensive move that was more powerful than what was intended (not properly calibrated). That hardly makes her a bad person. Knowing there is no chance there, Marcie's dad is ultra rich an powerful, so she would have been toast there.

Moxxi, come on, it's the borderlands, mostly anarchy. Running a bar, prostitution and even and arena is not out of the ordinary on a planet like Pandora. You can find places on Earth were prostitution is legal, and most place a bar is fine. She stabbed Jack in the back because she knew what he was, she was married to him after all.

Tina, she saw her parents undergo slag experimentation. Not exactly the best path to being a normal balanced teen. Her hatred of jack is understandable. As to illegal explosives, where do you think she is? Who said any of that is illegal on Pandora ?

Ellie, she had it in for bandits and the Hodunks and the Zafords. Not what I would call an inherently evil person. The Hodunks also wanted her dead, so the feeling was mutual.

Scooter, not a saint, but was willing to give his life to save others. As far as I know, once he was away from the Honunks he was a good person by Pandora standards.

I would not call the Vault Hunters hero, but other than Axton and maybe Zer0 I don't see them as bad people.

In the end, non of it matters. If the lore for Borderlands games were a ship, it would go down faster then the Lusitania because it is so full of holes.

One final question, why did I bother to spend time on this, Jack is the antagonist, he is a great one but hero he never was.

actually Trukr, Borderlands Wikia once mentioned something about the reason why Brick even went to Pandora, was to search for his sister (on top of loot)

[Dutczar]

Postat inițial de Фэйлкур (FailCur3):

Hitler is a hero in someone's eyes too. Respect f*cking opinions.

Are you actually retarded? If you have to use that as an argument that just validates our point.

[Маэстро]

Postat inițial de Dutczar:

Are you actually retarded? If you have to use that as an argument that just validates our point.

You know, there is a people in Ukraine, who acting like Nazis. So?

[Dutczar]

Yeah. You know, there are also people that are aware nazism is bad, and in my opinion are heroes. This means Nazism is bad, and you can't prove me wrong because it's an opinion.

See how little sense there is in using opinions for proving something?

[bazokajoe2]

Jack belives in a specific idea for Pandora and he does want to bring law and order, everyone of the main characters are bad people we just look at who is the worst. Also Jack is probably one of the best characters based on his writing as it brings up these moral questions. Can anyone else truly bring Pandora back from the state it is in? With the ammount of bandits on the planet the raiders would have to fight to bring order would take a while and they clearly are not able to do so. In this game and grante they do lose more people to Jack then bandits, the bandits kill the only corperal we know of, and capture roland and nearly beat Lilith, and keep Bricks gang in check.
Jack sees the warrior as a means to an end of the chaos on Pandora and the vault hunters see the warrior as a means to ending Jack both sides try to abuse its power and Jack wins over the raiders, but loses to the player.
Jack may have tortured people but so have the raiders and both sides do wahtever they need to to win, ethics are thrown out the window so neither side should really a overwhelming moral victory.
Jack is not a conventional villian but a more complex one, as he his the antagonist and as the protaginist we have to fight him, thus he is a villian to us but in reality all sides are bad we just joined the one that is against our enemy.

[Dutczar]

Postat inițial de bazokajoe2:

Jack belives in a specific idea for Pandora and he does want to bring law and order, everyone of the main characters are bad people we just look at who is the worst. Also Jack is probably one of the best characters based on his writing as it brings up these moral questions. Can anyone else truly bring Pandora back from the state it is in? With the ammount of bandits on the planet the raiders would have to fight to bring order would take a while and they clearly are not able to do so. In this game and grante they do lose more people to Jack then bandits, the bandits kill the only corperal we know of, and capture roland and nearly beat Lilith, and keep Bricks gang in check.
Jack sees the warrior as a means to an end of the chaos on Pandora and the vault hunters see the warrior as a means to ending Jack both sides try to abuse its power and Jack wins over the raiders, but loses to the player.
Jack may have tortured people but so have the raiders and both sides do wahtever they need to to win, ethics are thrown out the window so neither side should really a overwhelming moral victory.
Jack is not a conventional villian but a more complex one, as he his the antagonist and as the protaginist we have to fight him, thus he is a villian to us but in reality all sides are bad we just joined the one that is against our enemy.

The best explanation of this topic.

[bazokajoe2]

Postat inițial de Dutczar:

Postat inițial de bazokajoe2:

Jack belives in a specific idea for Pandora and he does want to bring law and order, everyone of the main characters are bad people we just look at who is the worst. Also Jack is probably one of the best characters based on his writing as it brings up these moral questions. Can anyone else truly bring Pandora back from the state it is in? With the ammount of bandits on the planet the raiders would have to fight to bring order would take a while and they clearly are not able to do so. In this game and grante they do lose more people to Jack then bandits, the bandits kill the only corperal we know of, and capture roland and nearly beat Lilith, and keep Bricks gang in check.
Jack sees the warrior as a means to an end of the chaos on Pandora and the vault hunters see the warrior as a means to ending Jack both sides try to abuse its power and Jack wins over the raiders, but loses to the player.
Jack may have tortured people but so have the raiders and both sides do wahtever they need to to win, ethics are thrown out the window so neither side should really a overwhelming moral victory.
Jack is not a conventional villian but a more complex one, as he his the antagonist and as the protaginist we have to fight him, thus he is a villian to us but in reality all sides are bad we just joined the one that is against our enemy.

The best explanation of this topic.

Thx, sorry I spelled whatever wrong.

[Маэстро]

Postat inițial de bazokajoe2:

Jack belives in a specific idea for Pandora and he does want to bring law and order, everyone of the main characters are bad people we just look at who is the worst. Also Jack is probably one of the best characters based on his writing as it brings up these moral questions. Can anyone else truly bring Pandora back from the state it is in? With the ammount of bandits on the planet the raiders would have to fight to bring order would take a while and they clearly are not able to do so. In this game and grante they do lose more people to Jack then bandits, the bandits kill the only corperal we know of, and capture roland and nearly beat Lilith, and keep Bricks gang in check.
Jack sees the warrior as a means to an end of the chaos on Pandora and the vault hunters see the warrior as a means to ending Jack both sides try to abuse its power and Jack wins over the raiders, but loses to the player.
Jack may have tortured people but so have the raiders and both sides do wahtever they need to to win, ethics are thrown out the window so neither side should really a overwhelming moral victory.
Jack is not a conventional villian but a more complex one, as he his the antagonist and as the protaginist we have to fight him, thus he is a villian to us but in reality all sides are bad we just joined the one that is against our enemy.

Hands down, that won over my idea.

[primobrainlet]

Jack killed bloodwing. Jack also tried to kill claptrap


he is not just a villan, he is a supervillan for those sins

[Illegally Blind]

Postat inițial de Фэйлкур (FailCur3):

Postat inițial de ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Banned:

Oh, okay. So if Hitler had a rough childhood then he's a hero too, yeah? Doesn't matter about that whole "killing millions of innocent people" thing, he got bullied as a kid so he's a hero.

Hitler is a hero in someone's eyes too. Respect f*cking opinions.

Not going to read through 117 comments here, but when do people's opinions become more important than people's lives. I never played tps, so maybe you're right that jack used to be a hero. In bl2 however jack is definitely not a hero. You mention that angel is just temperamental, but in what world is it okay to lock up your daughter and pump her full of drugs constantly? That is not love in any sense of the word. Anytime there is a form of an attempt at world cleansing you can be sure that the person orchestrating it is 100% without doubt not a hero. The ends never justify the means. This is a ridiculous assertation

[bazokajoe2]

Postat inițial de farmrbrwn:

Postat inițial de Фэйлкур (FailCur3):

Hitler is a hero in someone's eyes too. Respect f*cking opinions.

Not going to read through 117 comments here, but when do people's opinions become more important than people's lives. I never played tps, so maybe you're right that jack used to be a hero. In bl2 however jack is definitely not a hero. You mention that angel is just temperamental, but in what world is it okay to lock up your daughter and pump her full of drugs constantly? That is not love in any sense of the word. Anytime there is a form of an attempt at world cleansing you can be sure that the person orchestrating it is 100% without doubt not a hero. The ends never justify the means. This is a ridiculous assertation

Yoru last statement can be argued in which I think you are correct but there can be folly to it, now Jack is the villian because it was made so, I kinda want a spin-off of this game but as Jacks pov or at least a book or something to go off of. Lets say that Jack did for all intents and purposes lock Angel up soley to abuse her and that he wasn't doing any good of it, soly for vault and self gain. Then I would say Jack is more of a villan in motives however, he still can be a good person as what he does can still have a positive impact on the world around him, we can't turly be sure of his entire plans nor what his goals were after this but it is interesting to speculate and granted we cannot define love as it is a personal emotion.
As for world cleansing, Take Halo, or Starcraft or any game with a swarm of unstopable power, world cleansing is the only chocie that gets results in those cases, and in this game it does seem more plasuable then other forms of re-civilizing Pandora.

That whole hitler thing Im not really sure what it is, so im gonna go off of what you quoted. People's opinions are their lives, we make decisions off of everything we know or how we feel that being said our lives are run by opinions and personal experience but they don't make up our life, our life is biological and thus can be seperable from mental. That being said I think the point was not that opinions are more important than peoples lives but the emphisis opinions have on peoples lives.

[Illegally Blind]

Postat inițial de bazokajoe2:

Postat inițial de farmrbrwn:

Not going to read through 117 comments here, but when do people's opinions become more important than people's lives. I never played tps, so maybe you're right that jack used to be a hero. In bl2 however jack is definitely not a hero. You mention that angel is just temperamental, but in what world is it okay to lock up your daughter and pump her full of drugs constantly? That is not love in any sense of the word. Anytime there is a form of an attempt at world cleansing you can be sure that the person orchestrating it is 100% without doubt not a hero. The ends never justify the means. This is a ridiculous assertation

Yoru last statement can be argued in which I think you are correct but there can be folly to it, now Jack is the villian because it was made so, I kinda want a spin-off of this game but as Jacks pov or at least a book or something to go off of. Lets say that Jack did for all intents and purposes lock Angel up soley to abuse her and that he wasn't doing any good of it, soly for vault and self gain. Then I would say Jack is more of a villan in motives however, he still can be a good person as what he does can still have a positive impact on the world around him, we can't turly be sure of his entire plans nor what his goals were after this but it is interesting to speculate and granted we cannot define love as it is a personal emotion.
As for world cleansing, Take Halo, or Starcraft or any game with a swarm of unstopable power, world cleansing is the only chocie that gets results in those cases, and in this game it does seem more plasuable then other forms of re-civilizing Pandora.

That whole hitler thing Im not really sure what it is, so im gonna go off of what you quoted. People's opinions are their lives, we make decisions off of everything we know or how we feel that being said our lives are run by opinions and personal experience but they don't make up our life, our life is biological and thus can be seperable from mental. That being said I think the point was not that opinions are more important than peoples lives but the emphisis opinions have on peoples lives.

I havent played the games you mentioned, but i still firmly believe world cleansing is always the wrong choice. I understand throughout Earth's history cleansing has led way to progress and innovation, but that does not justify the cost of human life. Jack is a nuanced character, he is subjectively good while being objectively evil. Perspective has a way of muddying the waters. If something is objectively wrong, it is wrong period. There are no moral grey areas when it comes to genocide. As for the hitler thing, that is definetly not what the op meant. He definitely meant what he said in respect peoples opinions. I have heard this a thousand times and I laugh everytime. This blanket statement that "everyone has a right to an opinion" is the stupidest thing ive ever heard. Sure you can have your opinion, but opinions can be wrong. saying is something an opinion doesnt justfiy what is said. Some people are of the opinion the Earth is flat, and they are without a doubt wrong. I personally choose not to respect someone or their opinions if they are objectively wrong, I'll respect people who aren't idiots
edit: love is defined as "an intense feeling of deep affection." It can be defined. For all intents and purposes enslaving someone and pumping them full of foregin substances for personal gain is not affection. Jack clearly did not love Angel much as a serial cheater does not actually love their partner. Words are just words and anyone can play at semantics, but meaning is shown through actions. Jack's actions do not in any way show love for his daughter