Why I think Gaige is the worst designed character

[wingdings]

So I made a post in the "most fun character" thread about why gaige is the worst designed character in the game, but I'd like to make a new thread to generate more discussion.

Note that I'm not claiming that Gaige is weak or unviable; she can be pretty strong. But her design has serious flaws that severely limit her playstyle.

Gaige is a poorly designed character for the following reasons:

Deathtrap, her action skill, is the worst in the game by far. He does very little damage in UVHM, for starters, and unlike Axton's turret, you can't even recall him when you're done with him, meaning that you need to wait for the entire duration of the lengthy cooldown. Also unlike Axton's turret, which you have a semblance of control over because you can place it wherever you want, Deathtrap runs around freely, meaning that more often than not he's attacking enemies you don't want him to attack and aggravating enemies you don't want aggravated. Many of deathtrap's unlockable abilities, especially One Two Boom and The Stare, hurt deathtrap and lower his damage output instead of making it better.

At OP8, viable builds for Gaige are severely limited. You have to use Anarchy, since Gaige has very few other perks that increase her damage. Also, most of the good perks in the Ordered Chaos tree are located at the top, meaning that you reach the peak of Gaige's strength extremely early. This completely ruins any sense of progression and makes Gaige after that extremely boring.

Little Big Trouble is just an awful tree in general. Trying to make a viable Shock build with Gaige is almost impossible because she doesn't even unlock any perks that increase her shock damage until 2/3 down the tree, and the perks you need to invest into to get there is not worth it.

Best Friends Forever is probably her best designed skill tree, but even then it's not that interesting. I could see some cool things happening with Sharing Is Caring; giving DT a Flame of the Firehawk and turning him into a walking ball of death could be cool. An Antagonist on DT would also be very helpful for keeping enemies slagged. Most of the other skills in this tree, however, are simply random statistical upgrades to Gaige and DT, such as decreasing DT's cooldown (whoopee) and increasing his duration when he gets a kill.


A lot of people will probably say Salvador is the worst designed character, and he's definitely runner up. But Salvador at least accomplishes what the devs were going for: he is a gun wizard and a tank. All of his perks relate to making him bulkier or making him better with guns. He turned out way more powerful than expected, but at least he has a clear character design and playstyle in mind. That's not to say Salvador is a well designed character, however.

TL;DR, Gaige is sort of all over the place. Her action skill is not explored anywhere close to its full potential, and it's very unclear how she was intended to be played. A well designed Borderlands character, in my opinion, needs two things:

1. A running theme in their perk trees that gives the player a clear message of the character's intended playstyle. For example, Krieg loves taking damage to power himself up, and Zer0 is very burst-damage heavy.

2. Versatility, meaning that you can play the character in many different ways that are viable.

Salvador has the former but not the latter, but Gaige has neither, which is why she's worse than him in my book.

[wingdings]

also her voice is annoying

the way she screams when she gets an elemental DoT placed on her makes me want to deepthroat a meat cleaver

[z00t]

Thanks for the summary of Derch's recent video on Gaige.

[wingdings]

Originally posted by z00t:

Thanks for the summary of Derch's recent video on Gaige.

never heard of him

[Zen_Disaster]

Originally posted by handsome blap:

Originally posted by z00t:

Thanks for the summary of Derch's recent video on Gaige.

never heard of him

You're about the only BL2 player who's unfamiliar with Derch's classic video critique of Gaige's poor design. Amazingly, Derch hits just about every item you mention and then some (but he beat you by a couple years lol) > https://youtu.be/VxpHg_xENT0

[SunDrippedDevil]

Originally posted by handsome blap:

Deathtrap, her action skill, is the worst in the game by far. He does very little damage in UVHM, for starters, and unlike Axton's turret, you can't even recall him when you're done with him, meaning that you need to wait for the entire duration of the lengthy cooldown. Also unlike Axton's turret, which you have a semblance of control over because you can place it wherever you want, Deathtrap runs around freely, meaning that more often than not he's attacking enemies you don't want him to attack and aggravating enemies you don't want aggravated. Many of deathtrap's unlockable abilities, especially One Two Boom and The Stare, hurt deathtrap and lower his damage output instead of making it better.

I certainly feel like he does more harm than good, and that his AI is lousy. A lot of other players get so much more out of him, so I'm willing to consider the other side of the coin. Aside from the problems you have mentioned, i find that he also steals my buddies' second winds, block line of sight, glitches with buck up and regen's enemy shields, or just floats and does nothing. I never ever waste points on him, since he will never ever be able to outdps me. I use him as a meat shield/distraction, or surveyor locator.

Originally posted by handsome blap:

At OP8, viable builds for Gaige are severely limited. You have to use Anarchy, since Gaige has very few other perks that increase her damage. Also, most of the good perks in the Ordered Chaos tree are located at the top, meaning that you reach the peak of Gaige's strength extremely early. This completely ruins any sense of progression and makes Gaige after that extremely boring.

I also think that her action skill is almost useless, and definitely the worst of all the Vault Hunters. I don't disagree with Anarchy being Gaige's best tree. It certainly feels like a must to me, but I am always biased towards build efficiency. I've only ever played a BFF and Anarchy Gaige (never again), a Fibber Gaige (not bad but i didn't like raiding with it. It also felt very squishy especially during raids), and my current LBT and Anarchy Gaige (very viable and insanely powerful since Oct 2015). There's also Shamfleet Gaige (for lamers and sissies). There's probably more but I have never spent as much time with her to try different thing (I really like my current build).

Originally posted by handsome blap:

Little Big Trouble is just an awful tree in general. Trying to make a viable Shock build with Gaige is almost impossible because she doesn't even unlock any perks that increase her shock damage until 2/3 down the tree, and the perks you need to invest into to get there is not worth it.

Going to seriously disagree here. It used to be awful, but since they buffed/repaired the skills in it in Oct 2015, this tree is awesome. A lot of people don't acknowledge how much better it is now (actually fantastic). I don't even feel bad when I lose stacks; even with like 50 I feel incredibly powerful at OP8. It only gets better from there. At 250ish, I'm just massacring mobs. The clear speed is almost as good as Fibber-bee Gaige.

Originally posted by handsome blap:

Best Friends Forever is probably her best designed skill tree, but even then it's not that interesting. I could see some cool things happening with Sharing Is Caring; giving DT a Flame of the Firehawk and turning him into a walking ball of death could be cool. An Antagonist on DT would also be very helpful for keeping enemies slagged. Most of the other skills in this tree, however, are simply random statistical upgrades to Gaige and DT, such as decreasing DT's cooldown (whoopee) and increasing his duration when he gets a kill.

Strongly disagree. This tree is awful, except for a handful of skills. I don't see deathtrap as very useful, and any skill that boosts hims instead of me directly is a waste in my eyes. The capstone skill is good, but not worth the point investment for me. I usually grab the first two, and maybe unstoppable force. Anarchy is best designed tree, and the most interesting thing about playing her. I also find it puzzling you would open with Deathtrap being awful, and then follow up with the Deathtrap-centric tree being the best designed one.

Originally posted by handsome blap:

A lot of people will probably say Salvador is the worst designed character, and he's definitely runner up. But Salvador at least accomplishes what the devs were going for: he is a gun wizard and a tank. All of his perks relate to making him bulkier or making him better with guns. He turned out way more powerful than expected, but at least he has a clear character design and playstyle in mind. That's not to say Salvador is a well designed character, however.

Salvador has nothing interesting about him. He is so boring to play, and his skills are very basic and boring. I really like and enjoy how Anarchy works. I find it insanely fun to play.

Originally posted by handsome blap:

TL;DR, Gaige is sort of all over the place. Her action skill is not explored anywhere close to its full potential, and it's very unclear how she was intended to be played. A well designed Borderlands character, in my opinion, needs two things:

1. A running theme in their perk trees that gives the player a clear message of the character's intended playstyle. For example, Krieg loves taking damage to power himself up, and Zer0 is very burst-damage heavy.

2. Versatility, meaning that you can play the character in many different ways that are viable.

Salvador has the former but not the latter, but Gaige has neither, which is why she's worse than him in my book.

Gaige is definitely not as versatile as other characters. I think she should have a different action skill altogether that should have been Anarchy related. Deathtrap just feels like a burden/afterthought. However, a lot of people seem to like him, so I am aware that I could be missing something entirely.

I feel the Anarchy tree has a very clear running message: Accuracy is overrated when you do so much damage and don't really have to aim precise anyways. However, power comes at a cost, and the mechanics interact in a far more interesting manner than Sal and Moneyshot.

Salvador has no running theme for me except: Hold down the two mouse buttons sooner and longer. Don't worry about anything else.

Gaige may not be versatile, but her character has a concept besides "Don't like game changing mechanics? No worries, just shoot stuff twice as fast by dual wielding"

I feel that Gaige's design (though flawed with the existence of Deathtrap) is far more interesting than Salvador's.

[SunDrippedDevil]

Originally posted by Zen_Master:

Originally posted by handsome blap:

never heard of him

You're about the only BL2 player who's unfamiliar with Derch's classic video critique of Gaige's poor design. Amazingly, Derch hits just about every item you mention and then some (but he beat you by a couple years lol) > https://youtu.be/VxpHg_xENT0

I'm just pointing that the video is outdated. LBT was massive buffed in Oct 2015 among many of her other skills. Also, I too have never seen it before, but am aware of Derch.

[Zen_Disaster]

Originally posted by SunDrippedDevil:

Originally posted by Zen_Master:

You're about the only BL2 player who's unfamiliar with Derch's classic video critique of Gaige's poor design. Amazingly, Derch hits just about every item you mention and then some (but he beat you by a couple years lol) > https://youtu.be/VxpHg_xENT0

I'm just pointing that the video is outdated. LBT was massive buffed in Oct 2015 among many of her other skills. Also, I too have never seen it before, but am aware of Derch.

SunDripped - yep back at you. In fairness to Derch, he did add another video as a PS early last year to update his original by accounting for the 10/15 patch. In it he catches most all the areas you address today > https://youtu.be/zed_G2fNDvU

[SunDrippedDevil]

Originally posted by Zen_Master:

Originally posted by SunDrippedDevil:

I'm just pointing that the video is outdated. LBT was massive buffed in Oct 2015 among many of her other skills. Also, I too have never seen it before, but am aware of Derch.

SunDripped - yep back at you. In fairness to Derch, he did add another video as a PS early last year to update his original by accounting for the 10/15 patch. In it he catches most all the areas you address today > https://youtu.be/zed_G2fNDvU

Lol. Didn't know about that one either.

Moral of the story: watch the two videos. instead of reading our lengthy posts.

[Mister Torgue Flexington]

Originally posted by handsome blap:

also her voice is annoying

the way she screams when she gets an elemental DoT placed on her makes me want to deepthroat a meat cleaver

ouch

[wingdings]

Originally posted by Mister Torgue Flexington:

Originally posted by handsome blap:

also her voice is annoying

the way she screams when she gets an elemental DoT placed on her makes me want to deepthroat a meat cleaver

ouch

still less painful than listening to her

[Starbug]

Originally posted by handsome blap:

Originally posted by Mister Torgue Flexington:

ouch

still less painful than listening to her

I bow to your experience.

[SunDrippedDevil]

Originally posted by handsome blap:

Originally posted by Mister Torgue Flexington:

ouch

still less painful than listening to her

She is pretty annoying, and kind of makes me sometimes wish that I was deaf.

[Mister Torgue Flexington]

Originally posted by handsome blap:

Originally posted by Mister Torgue Flexington:

ouch

still less painful than listening to her

true, but it still made me laugh though

[trukr]

Originally posted by handsome blap:

also her voice is annoying

the way she screams when she gets an elemental DoT placed on her makes me want to deepthroat a meat cleaver

I really enjoy playing the Mechro, but yes, that scream is enough to make me very careful not to get in to that situation. However, I think I would listen to her do that on a loop before doing that to myself

Originally posted by Zen_Master:

Originally posted by handsome blap:

never heard of him

You're about the only BL2 player who's unfamiliar with Derch's classic video critique of Gaige's poor design.

Never heard of that youtuber myself, but I don't exactly look on there for things related to Borderlands 2 much.

[Mister Torgue Flexington]

Originally posted by trukr:

Originally posted by handsome blap:

also her voice is annoying

the way she screams when she gets an elemental DoT placed on her makes me want to deepthroat a meat cleaver

I really enjoy playing the Mechro, but yes, that scream is enough to make me very careful not to get in to that situation. However, I think I would listen to her do that on a loop before doing that to myself :claugh:

Originally posted by Zen_Master:

You're about the only BL2 player who's unfamiliar with Derch's classic video critique of Gaige's poor design.

Never heard of that youtuber myself, but I don't exactly look on there for things related to Borderlands 2 much.

FOR MUTHAF*CKIN' LEGAL REASONS!!!!