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Here is the deck, at rank 11 on the Team Battle leaderboard[puu.sh] that I personally use for 2v2:
Stormbringer: Grenadier, Grenadier, Plasma Marines, Warrior, Stun Lancers, Annihilator, Living Statue, Beam of DOOM!, Cleaver, Dragon Pack
This is a deck that is made entirely of Regular and Common cards. Cards that are extremely versatile and effective when played correctly. The rarer cards, on the other hand, are more specialized and require you to learn their weaknesses. For example, Dragon Pack can melt a Colossus, Cursebearer, and/or Xiao Long that they are placed on top of.
Stun Lancers can stun Colossus to delay his threat.
Warrior trades 1 for 1 with Cursebearer. Ranged Minions can also take down Cursebearer together without taking much damage from his ability.
Annihilator, Plasma Marines, and Stormbringer himself can all eliminate the threat of Xiao.
The single spell in the entire deck, Beam of DOOM!, allows you to clear big clumped up groups of enemy minions, and do face damage from afar. In addition, the fact there's only one spell in your entire deck greatly minimizes the chance Xiao has of being anything more than an overpriced, albeit airborne, Plasma Marine.
As you can see from the breakdown above, not only are these 'pay2win' minions not necessary to win, they are all counterable. It just requires building your deck a little differently to counter the current meta.
I have a few questions for clarification;
-What do you mean you were matched with a lvl 3 guy? Was it a Wood 3?
If his account level was 3, he literally hasn't unlocked matchmaking so that's impossible. I'm also curious how you'd find that out short of seeing him write in the chat (which also isn't unlocked at level 3)
If his rank was wood 3, he could theoretically be a Grand Master player who hadn't played for a number of months where season reset reduced his rank.
-Why do you feel that you cannot use shards to craft the cards you want?
This is an open question where I simply would like to know your thought process, since it speaks of how you interact with the game :)
-What are the decks that you feel you should be able to play but at kept from because of the meta? And what results of trying these decks did you have that led you to conclude you could not play them?
I hope you'll sate my curiosity :)
If you're having trouble competing, try asking for advice here on the forums (plenty of good advice in this thread) or on the discord.
It was probably after a month that the card collection was enough to be a bit more creative with decks. But alot of decks with just common/rares and the basic cards are very viable.
I'm in month 3, and missing about 30 cards now for the full collection (something like 20ish legendaries and a handful of supremes) - again, having only purchased the premium.
It's definitely not P2W.
Smurfs are there, of course.. I know a few players who have GM accounts who are bored enough to start one.
Indeed it was a person ranked very high (till now and alone today i have played at least 5 backpacker-matches) and one very low.
So i have to correct myself a bit and be clearer, which doesnt change the overall opinion on the games way to get cards (per 10 packs i get one new card).
These backpackers take a low ranked player to then grind on lower ranks.
The worst i have seen today was a rank 685 player coupled with a rank 3 platinum player.
Whether 2v2 is a fun mode or not doesnt matter for me, as that seems to be an internal view on it and not what is our impression (how would we as normal players know which mode is supposed to be a fun mode and which isnt. There is a 2v2 mode with ranked ladders so we expect the game to be balanced around it aswell.
Till now we have seen a few "ensured win" combinations that cant be countered with the wrong cards and need specific cards in the deck (like the Demonwarrior), which means its pretty much luck to encounter a a team that isnt using that specific combination.
Weirdly, these decks have only been used by these very high ranks, barely by anyone else.
Ultimatively the game feels a bit sluggish with the way cards are given.
Which addresses the other question you have.
I cant use shards to craft the cards i need (and still dont have) because all the cards i dont have cost 2000 and no matter howm any packs i open, i never get them.
Instead i get all the other cards i already have filled up to 3, which means that not only i am not getting any new card, i also cant scrap any of the other cards i own several times as i am only able to do that when i have more than 3.
2 days ago i got the third Styxi, today i got 4 cards or at least rare quality, which i already owned either twice or at least once and never need again anyway.
I cant craft a Priestess for example, as she is priced at 2000 shards. We played now for 2 weeks and i only gathered 700 shards.
I get that grinding the game for another month would probably hand me a few new cards and enough shards to craft one legendary, but till then i am stuck with what i have available even when i dont want to use it or it doesnt fit my playstyle.
And you bet im not paying money for a slight chance of getting what i want or need.
If you had a pricetag in the game telling me "pay this amount to unlock it all", i would.
But instead you went for "buy this fake currency that is only there to cover up your real expenses and trick you psychologicly and then buy new packs with that fake currency but you wont get what you want, instead the games roulette wheel decides what you get."
I dislike the gambling portion right there.
When i feel like pressing a button to see a wheel turn i get to the next pub and do that on a slot machine.
What i would love to see instead?
Have me open packs and ensure me to not get anything 3 times for the first 60 cards until i get the other 20. Hand a purchasebale pack that allows to unlock all cards.
I cant see a problem with that. The Smite monetization looks like the fairest available, either play for free and grind, or pay a price and get all champions.
Here im not only not able to play all champions, but also cant use all cards at the same time.
Which in the end leaves me a bit on the point of "either give me all the cards from the get go and have me purchase the champions, or hand me all the champions and let me purchase the cards."
This way, until i unlocked 100% of the stuff, i feel crippled in the freedom to create and use the deck and combination i want and feel good with.
I dont have 20 cards and so cant use specific tactics, i cant couple a tank with a healer like all the others in my rank, since i never unlocked one with 140 opened packs.
I cant use the Coloss which is a great tank like all the others, because i never got one.
I cant combine my Demonwarrior with a healwell, because i dont have them.
I see people use some really good cards and would like to try new tactics with them aswell, but cant.
Yeah maybe im just bad and impatient.
I personally never liked unlocking systems anyway and in my opinion they are misplaced in competitive games, as they ever mean an uneven system where one opponent likely has something you cant, instead of starting from the same position and have purely skill decide who wins.
At least this time it just becomes boring to play the same card combinations.
Thats it, do with that feedback what you want. I dislike the gambling aspect entirely and felt better with the game when it scrapped that out and had me just buy a specific part of the game.
Not grind around and spend time earning gold just to then have luck decide whether it was worth it.
In the end i play each day for nothing, as i dont gain new cards anyway, since i cant decide what i get, but the game does. And till now it doomed me to have the most boring stuff (in my opinion).
And while im sure theres someone out there loving to play with 3 times Styxi and 3 Flagbearers in a deck, i am not.
Or "pay to safe time".
Like Mobile Apps do it when they ask you to spend diamonds to have you not wait 2 days for the completion of a building.
And thats pretty much exactly how i feel currently.
The game wants me to either wait until i get stuff or have me pay for it.
I have nothing against buying things, but i wont buy for the slight chance of getting what i want.
I might just end up buying 30 packs and never get the cards i want or need.
Im not starting the game and want to tell you that creating a deck entirely out of Living Statue and Swarmers is the best and most fun ever, i want some of the more interesting cards.
But i simply cant experiment with my teammate enough, for example creating a support deck focussing on healing and shielding, since i dont have the cards for that.
On the opposite side, he has the cards i am lacking twice but doesnt really need them.
Cant see the motivation in that.
I get that for some its fulfilling to grind until you have unlocked everything and then finally not be stuck with the same stuff.
For me its not. Its like they have me play CSS with a glock and a defender while all the others get the AWP, Scout and AK47. There is a point where it becomes boring and sluggish and limits you in a way where you feel its unfair.
I hit that point after only two weeks.
Doesnt speak for the games system i guess.
Feel free to disagree, thats fine. As said above, take that feedback and do with it what you want.
I assume everyones experience with the game is different.
Thats mine, a limited one.
Priestess is a supreme, and costs 500. It takes 20 power tokens to get 500 shards, if you are not getting any net new cards (and assuming all you're getting are commons to salvage). Assuming at least 2 map clears per week.. you should be able to craft it within a week (each map clear is 10-15k on average, assuming you min/max this properly).
Draft mode is worthwhile to think about, even as a new player. You are guaranteed a card for anything from 0-9 wins (common from 0-5 wins, rare from 6-9 wins), 10-11 wins gives you a supreme chest, which could get a supreme card (but most likely gold or power token), 12 wins (the max) nets you a legendary chest, which could contain a legendary card. As a new player, I was doing that instead of purchasing power tokens, and got to learn most of the units I did not have in my own collection. 7 is the break even point (read: infinite drafts). This costs less the more you win, obviously, and was in my mind better than spending 1000 gold on one (usually common) card.
Lastly, Legendaries are about 2% chance, so about 1 in 50 power tokens. Supremes are about 10% chance. But the advice I'd give you is to actually focus more on saving shards for masters than cards, after you've crafted your first legendary (I only crafted Xiao at the beginning for the achievement).
You also get 2 legendaries from achievements. First one is fairly easy, the other just takes more time. I saved my rubies for skins..
I still use these 2 decks in solo 2s, with one crafted legendary:
Stormbringer (one legendary, all basic/commons otherwise): Daggerfall, Plasma Marines, Plasma Marines, Plasma Marines, Wall, Xiao Long, Laser Turret, Living Statue, Beam of DOOM!, Cleaver
Mordar (3 rares, one legendary, no supreme, rest basic/commons): Dragon Whelp, Healing Shrine, Re-Boomer, Xiao Long, Undying Skeleton, Annihilator, Laser Turret, Living Statue, Beam of DOOM!, Cleaver
In case you are wondering about my rank.. I've reached GM in 2s (both solo and premade) and Master in 1s in the first 2 seasons, and will most likely do the same in this season (my 3rd).
The game is already quite generous in giving out free gold and cards as is. As a F2P game, it's already quite "easy" to progress. If you can't wait, you can always purchase packs. The only suggestion I might make to the developers is to make legendaries you get to be one you don't already have (up to 3 if duplicate, then unowned ones), much like how Hearthstone changed that awhile back.
You could also salvage your extra Styxis, you know. :) Legendaries are hard to get, as they should be.
Which cards? There are only 17 supremes and 13 legendaries. 30 cards in total. The rest (73 cards) are regular, commons and rares, which are super easy to get. See my recommendation on playing draft in my earlier message.
Even only having 73 cards to play with (no supremes or legendaries, but you clearly have some), there's alot of combinations to be had (assuming no wild card). Every week the 2 free masters change as well.
1.) The gambling aspect that only gives me a chance to get something isnt rewarding, its not motivating to play more, as my only reward till now has been stuff i dont want or would use, or doubles of cards i wouldnt use twice anyway, let alone three times (like 3 times Styxi). I might mention, the argument "use card x to counter that" doesnt mean a thing to me. For me its the availability of cards because thats equal to having options to create a deck i want to play with. I wouldl ike to counter enemy tanks with cursebearer and not with a laserturret.
Having options equals therefore how enjoyable the game is. As said above, its like limiting the availability of guns in a shooter like CS.
Yes technically i can counter the AWP Sniper with a Desert Eagler/Nighthawk, but i would love to use a Scout or an UMP for that.
It being free to play means nothing, as there are many available monetization design possible. Including an easier and less labyrinth structured one.
One where i just can buy the "premium" and have all unlocked.
Yet they have me going through the chore of weird monetization tactics and chuck out more money than its worth it.
Sell me the games content for 20€ and im fine with that.
2.) Because of that mentioned randomness (chance of unlocking, no guaranteed unlock), it often feels unfair when people have for example two Xiao Long in their deck, creating fun strategies, while you are stuck with the stuff you have, at worst as in my case, with loads of spell cards that get hard countered.
What you should realize, everyone sees this topic individually, you might be ok with that, i am not.
You might love using Card X, i might not. You might like to unlock stuff and grind "loot", i am not. I want to create a fun deck and play against people, the game limits me in doing that.
I dont play the game to spin a wheel.
3.) Having on top not all champions available increases the feel of being limited, as you are not only stuck to certain champions, but also to the luck of the draw and cards you have.
You have to make the best out of what you got, even if its pure unfun and boring.
4.) No clear "buy this and you get that". Its again a game that tries to hide what you get and also then doesnt really give you anything, which in the end just feels like another of these free to play games that want to milk as much money as possible.
Which doesnt really fit the image i had of the company that made the Forced Games and rather like one of these many Mobile Games developers.
5.) The result chain:
The other games aspects end up being worse because of that.
Since i am limited in the amount of resources i can get, i feel (for example on expeditions) like its rather recommended to wait a day until i continue playing, as keeping to play the game punishes me.
Waiting fills the supplies on the map, which means i have to use less of those i earned through contracts and matches.
Since i am limited to those i can earn through contracts, wasting them means i cant do anything on an expedition when i run out of those.
Which is logical since you want to sell me these random gambling packs on the store and not earn an infinite amount of gold through simply playing the game.
And since its either "wait or visit the store", i question the system behind it.
Do you want me to play the game or do you want me to play 5 rounds and then have me wait?
Because as it is, im not motivated to do continue.
I cant do expeditions because i am limited in the resource i need to do them (1), which means in return i cant earn more resources to buy packs to get new cards (2), which means i cant get new cards (the chance to get a new card, again the math here: 17 opened packs =1 new card for me twice in a row) (3), which means im stuck with the cards i have for the only mode i can continue to play for free (4).
6.) Which then i wont because its not motivating to have a limited selection, especially when other factors join the problem (e.g. smurfing or backpacking, meta and strong cards with big effects like Xiao Long or Cursebearer).
This chain then ends up leaving players like me and my friend in a position where continueing to play is punishing and frustrating, and not rewarding or really fun.
PRO: To shed some light here, the game is fun, playing duo mode is fun, the cards are cool enough, the presentation is nice, the game is deep enough to be interesting (yet here again, the depth is also bound to the availability of cards and champions, in return less options mean less depth).
I hope this structured it a bit more in specific points. It sounds less interesting, doesnt matter. See the Pro side, you have a good game with an interesting and fun gameplay loop that we like to play each day in duo mode to have some fun.
But then stop doing so because the F2P system behind it is a chore that has us losing motivation and encourages us to rather wait and not continue.
If the F2P served as a demo impression to get us buying something, you reach the opposite effect currently for us.
We would instantly buy the "full pack" and just unlock all the stuff and continue playing, like buying a normal game.
Instead its yet another League of Legends System that locks interesting stuff behind either long grind or a paywall that had us to spend more money than my full wishlist.
also its a card game. Part of card games are opening packs and seeing what you find. Being rewarded for wining and using the rewards to create whatever cards you want is enjoyable.
You can get all the cards in the game for free, and it will be even easier when next patch hits and supplies are removed, and we get pure gold.
also you can reach top rank with pure free/common cards easy. If you want specific cards just craft them.
You need to understand that the developers made the game to actually try to be profitable. I don't think they are with this game yet, given the player base, especially now that they've been developing it for over a year.
You wanting the entire game for 20€ is a bit unrealistic. I've done some calculations.. to get just one copy of each common, rare, supreme and legendary would be 39375 shards today. All the masters adds another 8500 shards. Let's round that into 48k shards, which equates to (and this is roughly calculated) about 24k rubies. This would be a bit over 3x 7500 rubies pack. Would you pay that to guarantee getting one copy of every card? Or how about being able to purchase cards for rubies instead of shards? Devs, maybe have a store option like this, for say 60-80 to get one copy of every card (now and forever?). Cost of masters is just 4500 rubies, which is somewhere in the 25-30 range.
Alot of games made today are on the F2P model, with paying real $ to accelerate the grind.
Like I said above, having access to 73/103 cards (2/3 of the game) available to you within a few days of playing is already quite good. Levels don't matter at all in this game (after level 25, which is ridiculous easy to get).
What's to stop you from salvaging your extras and using those shards to craft the cards you want? All you keep mentioning is Xiao and Curse Bearer.
Part of the game is collecting cards (as mentioned by another posted above). You can unlock the entire game for free, given enough time. It might not be enjoyable to you, sure, but that's why rubies can be purchased.
Are you saying that not having access to all the cards make the game "unfun"? Even without access to all the masters, every week you can have access to two free masters and make new decks with the cards you do have. Part of the fun should also be figuring out how to make the best deck you can with the limited resources you have.
There is an aspect of RNG to the game (order of cards), but largely it's skill based. Not having access to masters.. well, you could have spent the rubies you got from premium or use shards to get your favorite ones. As per my advice above, that would be the first thing I would focus on rather than cards.
It's just a different model. If you think of purchasing rubies = salvaging into shards = crafting a card, you do get "buy this and get that", since you are guaranteed 25 shards per power token on salvage.
Again, you can unlock the entire game for free, given enough time. I think it's unfair to say the game is unfun and boring because you do not have access to different cards or masters.
Supplies is another currency which has been debated to death. Devs are changing that next week, hopefully to better success. Just playing games gives you supplies (win or loss), or watching streamers and gettings codes gets you free supplies. It is "unlimited" gold for free, but restricted. It does *feel* a bit slow, but in actuality was slightly better for gold gain than the older system.
What is backpacking, by the way? I'm not familiar with that term. Is that the same as smurfing? This is a problem that without a larger player base won't get solved any time soon.
Have you and your friend reached your skill limit? Like many of us have said, a deck full of common and regular cards is very viable. If you equate "fun" = winning, then create decks that counter Xiao and Cursebearer (as you keep pointing to those 2 "problem" cards).
If the game is fun, then support the devs. Buying premium just by playing 10 hours is already worthwhile. It costs money to keep adding new content, balancing the game, create new game modes, etc etc. Even games nowadays have DLC or expansion packs to keep generating revenue. The F2P model is here to stay.
What would you set as a price that the developers should charge you for "full access" to the game, knowing all this?
-Priestess and Demon warrior are Supreme so you only need 500 shards to get either.
-You can salvage cards before you have 4 copies, just right click the card and salvage it manually if you don't need more than 1 or 2 copies. This should allow you to get the new cards you're missing if you don't feel the duplicates are helping you.
-If you salvage a Styxi (which you mention you don't want) you can immediately craft the Priestess or Demon Warrior.
-It should be possible for you to get 2000 shards by salvaging your copies, and then you can craft the legendaries you feel are necessary.
With that out of the way, I understand your gripe with the unlock system, but I'm afraid it simply means it's not the game for you. This is a CCG, which means it's about collecting cards involving an element of randomness and the excitement of the unknown.
I don't agree with your initial layout of the situation as a P2W game for 2 reasons:
1. As many have said, you can do just fine without the high rarity cards, you just need to be better at playing the game. Positioning and fast decisions are key, and plenty of our best players have shown time and time again that you can get to Grand Master using the very basic deck without using a single spin.
2. Even if you needed specific cards to play on the ladder, based on what you tell me, you right now have the option to get those cards through the crafting system.
With all that said, we're actually looking into a way to make getting duplicates more rewarding, since we're not very satisfied with it at the moment. It's a big task which will take some work though, and I'm afraid it probably won't change how you unlock new cards, simply allow you to utilize the duplicates in a better way.
Thanks again for the feedback and the clarification, and to the rest of those contributing to the discussion here.
Did you ever play Hearthstone? You buy a card pack and what you get is RNG-based. And it doesn't even matter that you get 5 cards per card pack since it's gambling according to your definition.
Minion Masters is more than just a card game, but in the end it has a high CCG aspect. And part of that aspect is to collect cards rather than buy them all at once.
You named SMITE in one of your posts. You're right about being able to buy all Heroes. But is that really comparable? And are other MOBAs restricting, cause they don't allow you to buy all Heroes at once? I don't think so. Not to mention, that SMITE isn't the most popular MOBA even with that option available.
You're absolutely right. Some might like to grind, others want to spend money and get everything. And I can assure you that we are looking closely at our metrics in order to evaluate which road to choose.
The draw is random in every other card game I can imagine out of the top of my head. Many deck lists you see are easily playable (and viable) with several Masters. Masters are just an addition, more often than not, not the core of a decks' viability.
Which buy options are unclear to you? You spend a certain amount of Rubies and get something (Masters, Arenas, Skins, Power Tokens). You spend a certain amount of money and get Rubies for it. Clear buy options. Power Token rewards are RNG? Yes. But you don't even have to spend a singly penny on Power Tokens, since they are available through Gold.
Expeditions will be changed next Wednesday. The movement will be free, Supplies and Relics get removed and reimbursed in Gold. Gold will be a reward then for completing Daily Quests, ranking up, leveling up, from Free Tokens and so forth. Plus: Expeditions will reward Gold as well. And you have the free choice to spend your Gold on the "gambling packs" (again, this aspect is present in a load of games, even games you have to pay for, like Overwatch Loot boxes for instance) or whatever you desire most.
If you get 1 new card in 17 Tokens, chances are high enough that you can salvage copies of cards exceeding the amount of 3.
There's some debate about the mentioned cards, but I see plenty of decks not running either of them or just a single one. Even more importantly, several players proved that only basic cards and the starter Master (Stormbringer) can go all the way to GM.
Thanks for your kind words! And don't take any of my replies as an offense. I value your insights and feedback! But some points just sound more like a result of frustration or tilt, rather than plain flaws. You received a lot of valuable feedback from our community and I hope some of that will help you out.
Another point you mentioned: 2vs2 is a fun game mode. It's in the game because our community wanted it to stay after we ran an event with 2vs2 back in the days. Our main competitive game mode is 1vs1, regardless of leaderboards being present in both modes. The game itself is balanced around 1vs1, which doesn't mean we ignore 2vs2! But balance in 2vs2 can snowball out of control quite fast sometimes. How players know that? They follow us on Twitter, Reddit, Facebook[www.facebook.com], Discord[discord.gg] and read our blog[blog.betadwarf.com]. And you're absolutely welcome (as well as your friend) to do the same.
Lastly, League of Legends is the most popular MOBA game out there. They have a very large player base, a very large eSports scene with Millions of Dollars in prize pools and the overall success of that game tells me, that the developers did something right. They cannot please everyone, nor can we. But they can try to please the vast majority, which they seem to do. We're watching our metrics closely and we would not hesitate to take actions if our metrics showed something alarming. You can be sure about that since we aren't the developers of League of Legends which can let go 100k players, because the next 200k players are already in the game.
The system right now is more than decent in my opinion: new players start out with the basic cards which have no "special effects", they play the game a bit and then unlock slightly more complex cards that they can try out and figure out if they're good or not. Right now you should be able to unlock on average around 15 cards per week just by doing your quests (and investing the supply rewards into getting gold/cards from expeditions). If you wanna try out fun cards then play draft. It's cheap and you've got access to all the cards and masters and it might also help you see if a card's good or not.