Cannon Roller

[Nightbringer]

So, what is its purpose again? With new melee minions, it doesn't counter them at all. Even a simple minion can catch up to it and do damage. It cannot fire into air. Its damage is great, but it does not have any health whatsoever. Cleaver is a given that it can catch up, but not even a shot fired? Prowler also will just decimate this minion. The only minions it is really capable of countering is below 4 mana cost and this is just unacceptable.


Cannon Roller is a horrible card right now as it simply cannot meet its required function. It needs some serious love as a card from range increase, to knock back increase.

[TofuDieb [profile in progress]]

Meme Roller

[carlospaul]

Yeh the Roller really needs a buff, along with Shielded Crossbow Dudes

[Mordtziel]

Cannon Roller is a defensive card that pairs well with Stormbringer, Ravager, and to a lesser degree, Mordar. It is capable of countering any slow moving minion like Red Golem and can also be used to counter glass cannon ranged like the Succubus.

Yes, the minion is countered by air, Cleaver, and Prowler, these are its exact counters. It's similar to complaining that Cleaver gets countered by swarm, Snake Druid, and Musketeer.

Does the card fit the meta right now? Not really. This is not necessarily grounds for a buff though.

[Nightbringer]

That is not countering. It is just match ups against this card happens to be good. It is not its intended purpose and telling that it counters those things is like telling me that Plasma Marines counters Cleavers when presented with a good frontline.


As for Stormbringer, its synergy is also too low. It does not gain significant advantage in range to become a worthwhile unit. Neither you use this card to counter Golems. Its damage is too low, its health is too low. It is way too easy to counter it. Golems of various kinds are not exactly countered by anything in themselves. Sure, Scrat Horde might do a trick, but it won't do much in real game. It is a combined arms effort or if you are lucky job for lighting bolt or Beam of Doom when enemy develops an adequate push.

[Mordtziel]

A cannon roller will counter a golem every time unless the golem is played into melee range of it. So once again, it's a defensive card. You don't play it to go offensive. If you're playing it offensively, it's only to cover a push in the place of a spell since its continuous knockback will keep it retargeting.

And I also have no idea what you think a counter is if it isn't beating a card 1v1.

[Nightbringer]

You are thinking it wrong. Such creatures are always deployed in a back for a player to get enough mana to support them. Cannon Roller does not counter these creatures directly, because of its low health. It is way too easy to counter your counter in this meta. Dragon Ball is the most common card which would destroy your strategy.


Direct counter to them is Lighting Bolt. Even top 20 players in this game, due to inherent design flaws can afford making obvious misplays and deploy such creatures first. No other spell can counter them. To counter such cards is best either with your own big cards or concentrated defense effort. Just last game person tried to push with Collosus. I had countered it with a Magma cannon, Assassin and Shock Rock. I would use even Scrats for it to delay giant and force him to swing. Such counter relied on not actually being terribly behind in mana. It also required to set up defense and to properly time your own abilities.


Other possible cards are Scrat Horde, but more because of their insane dps. Drone Buzzers, Dragon Whelp, Plasma Marines. They can work just as cannon roller, but chances are, your opponent will use some sort of AoE against them. Most likely Dragon Ball as it is one of the few viable spells nowadays.


Btw: Traditionally stun lancers are meant for this role. Yet, their own problem is the same. They do no damage and just support. That is a hefty price for 4 mana minion which I think developers did not fully realized. They as other solutions do lack a lot of hitpoints to make them truly viable pick.

[Mordtziel]

Just last game person tried to push with Collosus. I had countered it with a Magma cannon, Assassin and Shock Rock. I would use even Scrats for it to delay giant and force him to swing. Such counter relied on not actually being terribly behind in mana. It also required to set up defense and to properly time your own abilities.

Did you just give me an example of you spending 11 mana to counter an unsupported 9 mana card that cannon roller would have handled for 4 mana?

Dragon Ball seems to be your go-to response to me at this point. Dragon Ball is an inefficient answer. It's 5 mana and requires a setup 3 mana card. Which means my opponent, assuming they're comboing with at least blue golem, has spent at least 15 mana so far. Why would I expect my 4 mana card to counter a 15 mana combo? Combos generally need answered by combos. The exceptions to this ruling are cards like Beam of DOOM and Magma Storm which themselves can be countered by Black Hole which is an efficient response to them.

The reason Cannon Roller does so well against big minions is that it forces the opponent to do something more. Colossus will reach those plasma marines and kill them even if they do nothing about it. Meanwhile, Cannon Roller provokes a response and due to his placement, it's generally a spell that has to counter it, an expensive spell. A minion will simply walk in front of Colossus and find itself targeted by the Cannon Roller when it retargets meaning the minion has to be a fairly expensive one as well. Cannon Roller is really only vulnerable when it comes to going on the offensive, and even then, it's in a better place than a lot of other minions.

I'm also not sure why you think Cannon Roller's damage is bad considering it's the 2nd highest ranged dps in the game (behind only Bazooka Scrat). Yes, it's generally not attacking 100% of the time due to the roll back, but if it finds itself against a wall, or against a standard range or better moving minion, it will be attacking the whole time.

Btw: Traditionally stun lancers are meant for this role. Yet, their own problem is the same. They do no damage and just support. That is a hefty price for 4 mana minion which I think developers did not fully realized. They as other solutions do lack a lot of hitpoints to make them truly viable pick.

Traditionally, stun lancers have never been meta outside of gold and below.

[Nightbringer]

It seems you are not aware of existing meta. Dragon Ball is go to answer to everything by this community. It is the most common card available and I made a thread already of how easy it is to activate that card. You do not activate such cards on a go. You get it in your hand and you first use 3 mana card to do something else. To push, capture bridge, answer a push. It is also an exact reason why Cannon Roller do not counter this card. Like Stun Lancers, it has too little health. It is a same thing with Dragon Whelp or Drone Buzzers. You keep thinking that when such cards will be dropped, you will be allowed to cast Cannon Roller from your bridge and dps him all the way to your hero. This is not the case, any big minion is cast in the very back of your opponent's spawn, usually when they are answering your counter push or push. Which means you yourself usually are in low mana state. From that point, your higher mana pool will have to answer a threat when I myself could use spell to counter your counter. I use Shock Rock to demolish counters to my Last Stand. Or Lighting Bolt if they drop Divine Warrior or Defenso Choppa naked.


The best way to counter these giants are indirectly. There aren't spells meant to kill those giants. Each of them is a giant threat on a board and a single such push can end you if well executed. These giants serve more of denial against overextention as getting caught wrong footed can end you a game. Even if you hold a card which can answer them, it is likely to be buried in your deck. In this game, it is best to have versatile cards as any situational cards, even spells in general can loose you the game. I especially know this as I run some buildings and spells. Sometimes I have two bridges captured and just useless spells and buildings in my hand to play. Place turret and you will get another spell card which is useless in said situation.


Cannon Roller by himself does not counter those giants any better than my mentioned counters and they are at least cheaper or more universal. Its damage also is too low if you consider it being capable of counter these cards on its own. Dragon Whelp for example can spawn on its head and inflict massive damage. Scrat Horde has simply insane dps. Blink and everyone is dead nor those Golems kill them in any rapid fashion with their slow attacks. I also enjoy dropping last stand on those cards as Legionnaries are pain in the ass to remove from a board.

[Mordtziel]

Guess I'm just delusional about Cannon Roller.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1516401963
After all, it would never work against a good player right?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1516402165

You can sit there and pretend it's an unplayable card all you want, but I can still make it work against some of the best people to ever play this game (which if you're unaware, katt is usually top 5 on the leaderboard and won 4 tournaments last circuit).

You can also tell me how Dragon Ball counters Cannon Roller, but you're not allowed to ignore the fact that Dragon Ball also counters everything else you've listed.

[Nightbringer]

I'm not sure how you end up with 2 Colossus in a normal game... I get it, he can ress it, but still I would crap myself seeing such frontwall advancing towards me.


It is true, but the crucial difference is, other counters are cheaper and do a lot more dps and more importantly are far more versatile and can be used in different situations rather than just one.

Cannon Roller is damn slow to damage its targets and cannot be effective if you are defending at the spawn. It also has an issue with its powerful shots being soaked by random, cheap minions. It is pretty much fight from the bridge. If it would be me, well I'm not sure if Shock Rock is enough to stun it for long enough, but certainly you will get Lighting Bolted the moment you try something as clever. I do not know why you are thinking and how you can get away with nonsense like this. Sure, Cannon Roller can be a part of your answer, but individually it won't counter anything. It takes too long to achieve its own value. I manage to counter Colossus with damn Assassin at the lost of just him alone. The difference is, Assassin is extremely useful in all other situations.

[Nightbringer]

Yup, just had one Cannon Roller user and it doesn't counter melee minions. The moment it would spawn and use its first attack, it would get Shock Rock'ed and my melee units would quickly kill it since it has no health. It also had severe issues at defending base as if it would have to spawn next to its own hero, it would have no place to retreat to. Similar issue and with Succubus.

[Mordtziel]

I'll say it again, Cannon Roller is the highest dps ranged minion in the game that can target minions (outside of high stack soul stealer/arcane golem). Its dps is even higher than that of Dragon Whelp.

Yes, Shock Rock can change some interactions, but not responding to an opponent's reaction is another issue entirely. I'm not really sure why this keeps coming down to "but this other card". I can do that with pretty much any other card as well. Did Cannon Roller become weaker with the introduction of Dragon Ball? Sure. Did it become unplayable? No. If your opponent is using the Dragon Ball on your Cannon Roller, then your other card that is vulnerable to Dragon Ball is now free to be played. Or a quick reaction of Banner Man + Ranged will work too and depending on exactly what was summoned, you could still walk out of it having spent less than your opponent that you are countering.

And a lot of this discussion is happening in a vacuum situation where we're completely focused on this one lane, I could be throwing all my mana down the other lane while the cannon roller takes care of this Colossus or whatever.

[K-Bro]

Nightbringer I'm gaining a lot of insights from your posts, I hope you keep making them.

I often disagree with you, but that's not a problem if the discussion is good ^_^

[Nightbringer]

Originally posted by HedonicBro:

Nightbringer I'm gaining a lot of insights from your posts, I hope you keep making them.

I often disagree with you, but that's not a problem if the discussion is good ^_^

Glad to hear that. Sadly, often discussions turn sour as people are not used to have their opinions and beliefs questioned. :)

[Nightbringer]

You are right about high dps. Yet, I had meant relative dps. Expectations for 4 mana minions are completely different than for 3 mana minion and having Dragon Whelp doing 50 dps vs Cannon Roller 60 is insignificant difference. What matters more is that Dragon Whelp is whole mana cheaper, this is why its damage is considered higher. Take for example Scrat tank with 30 dps. It is so low that it does not even matter yet if this card would cost 3 mana, 30 dps would be a lot. This is why when I tell you that X will do more damage, I also include mana efficiency per dps. True dps monsters at 4 mana are Flightless Dragons and with Stun Lancers they would devastate any big card. The issue is this: are these cards at least good enough to be played on their own? This is a real issue with Cannon Roller. You do not take this card to counter those giants. You take this card to counter all melee units. Yet, as I had explained in my other thread, sadly this card does not do that. Multiple cards were introduced who have various leap and charge mechanics who completely counter this card. Prowler, Incubus, Cleaver, these are popular cards which this minion is helpless against. When it comes down to it, this card struggles to counter pretty much a lot of things. It can be good in very few situations like against Divine Warrior or Defenso Choppa which are popular cards these days, but its good match ups are too rare. This card is too easily destroyed. It needs some serious love to be viable card.


Where I think you do not understand me is in risk relation. Yes, Cannon Roller can counter those cards if left alone. I have no doubt about that. Yet, I do wonder what enemy player is doing. I too play against top players of this game regularly and there is no such thing as having one card to counter another. The moment I put something, I get it Dragon Balled, Daggerfalled, Shock Rocked and countered it in other ways. I do it too. I use my Last Stand and I use Shock Rock and Lighting Bolt to counter their counters. Whirly Scrat, Annihilator, Divine Warrior, Defenso Choppa, Fire Imp, Incubus. These are most common countering responses to my value pushes. Yet, when I deploy my counter push, it is usually it being delayed, either by finishing opponent's push or just waiting little bit longer than 7 mana or deploying them at the back rather the front. Enemy then tries to counter them by deploying a single minion on an empty board. I Lighting Bolt it immediatly. This then leaves opponent virtually without counter, because if lets say, opponent just played Fire Imp and I removed it (I even remove 3 mana minions for a same reason) this then means that his prime counter just got countered and he has nothing to answer Last Stand card now or he is very unlikely to. Same stands for Shock Rock, it is a cheap way to make you loose your counter. It is no small thing when you loose your 4-6 mana minion to a very bad trade just because your opponent used Shock Rock. This is how I counter Scrat Hordes with Assassins and manage to do similar nonsensical trades. A right spell at the right time can change the equation and I'm really puzzled in seeing you so adamantly defending your own ideas that single Cannon Roller is enough to counter Golems and Colossus. What happens when you are being countered? You then will play your other cards who do not directly counter him? Plasma Marines for example are sitting ducks without support. Often, most people will struggle to find other good counter when they just wasted one. Or if you will try to push on the other side, sure it can work if opponent is on lower health, but those cards hit hard and takes a long time to remove. In addition, if you spent half of your mana on one front and it get countered, you cannot do much with lets say 5 mana in counter push. You might inflict some damage, but it will be cleaned out quite easily. Your opponent will just wait until minions are attacking him, deploy Plasma Marines and just tank that damage. Letting one of those monsters to get to your hero first and then trying to counter push your opponent is fool's errand. Even if you deploy your all assets to counter push, you likely to inflict a lot of damage, but your push will be cleaned eventually and then you have Colossus attacking your hero and it won't be removed easily.



You have very different outlook on how to play this game and it is good, but I'm not sure how truly viable those tactics are in a fair game when both opponents are equally matched and know each other.