Install Steam
login
|
language
简体中文 (Simplified Chinese)
繁體中文 (Traditional Chinese)
日本語 (Japanese)
한국어 (Korean)
ไทย (Thai)
Български (Bulgarian)
Čeština (Czech)
Dansk (Danish)
Deutsch (German)
Español - España (Spanish - Spain)
Español - Latinoamérica (Spanish - Latin America)
Ελληνικά (Greek)
Français (French)
Italiano (Italian)
Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian)
Magyar (Hungarian)
Nederlands (Dutch)
Norsk (Norwegian)
Polski (Polish)
Português (Portuguese - Portugal)
Português - Brasil (Portuguese - Brazil)
Română (Romanian)
Русский (Russian)
Suomi (Finnish)
Svenska (Swedish)
Türkçe (Turkish)
Tiếng Việt (Vietnamese)
Українська (Ukrainian)
Report a translation problem
Discussions Rules and Guidelines
Report this post
I really don't think this is true. Both the bomber and rammer can go down really fast even to those little units that they play. Ghost turret behind a wall even more so. And whose to say you even managed to destroy the building? Call to arms isn't that costly when the buildings only cost 3 (not 4 or 5) and last a long time (both the xp shrine and the wall will sit around until you get another one).
I often try to hit both the ghost turret and the xp shrine with a single fireball but it often ends up with them getting a call to arms off just before either building going down. Fireball just isn't effective against several warriors. To control the warriors, boomer helps a lot but remember that the warriors will often respawn even with paying attention to the tombs and trying to off their little guys first. However, even with boomer and rammer, I'm struggling to beat a well played Call to Arms deck. Maybe others are having more success.
You don't think which is true? Buildings really don't last very long, if anything I wish they lasted longer (even if I were playing against a C2A deck). Maybe the pace of the game has your assumed timeframe sped up so it seems forever for you...
Zepplin goes down fast against plasma marines but is still likely to hit one of the buildings if CBs are onto him... only the ghost turret has a decent stand against zepplin. ghost turret behind a wall is 6 cost total with a timer - why are you tying to compare it to a 2 cost unit that isn't made to take hits? Add swarmers for 2 cost and that ghost turret is toast... any of the 3-4 cost tanks and that wall is toast, maybe both, for the same cost as the wall+turret.
Call to arms isn't that costly when you can get both tombstones down, but buildings cost: 3 for ghost turret, 3 for wall, 3 for bridge shine (otherwise useless building, it has zero offense or defense capabilities... only hopes to rush you to the second tombstone asap - controlling bridges works better), 5 for laser turret (the only building version of a heavy counter which will be needed), scrat launcher, or either of the spawning buildings (i've found these to be too costly with too little return, you need the lower cost buildings so that you can get your stack up and these slow you down). Dragon roost is out the window as a building deck doesn't really have room to get the spells necessary to make it useful. -- averages out to around 4 mana expected PER BUILDING when you're getting one warrior (cost of 3) per building. Basically, if you are talking mana effectiveness you CURRENTLY can't play C2A without having all the buildings you're summoning also doing their full spawn or having a tangible effect themselves on the game (not just "in use to count as a warrior spawn.") ... this is why I said you need to have at least 3 buildings down before it gets useful, and the deck can easily be shut down before you get those buildings up or have the buildings time out before you can play C2A... the only thing that makes the card mana effective is the tombstones which is why I would bet real world moneys that no C2A deck running under another master has more than a 5% win rate assuming the opponents played a reasonable deck reasonably.
To dumb that down a bit in case anyone isn't paying attention: If I want to play the quoted "op strat" I'd have to play wall and ghost turret, with the turret behid the wall. that's 6 mana. Now C2A is another 6 mana, and let's assume I tried (but likely failed) to take the bridges with a 1 casting cost kobolds.... we're looking at 13 mana expected... in that time you could drop a colossus (which would wreck this), rammer AND scrat launcher, cleaver, anything with range (the ghost turret can't reach past a wall onto ranged units)... lot's of possibilities... all of which would likely push back the summoning of the C2A as only spawning 2 or 3 isn't mana efficient, where as at this point the opponent would have the mana supremacy, both bridges, and be whacking away on the wall.
From what I'm seeing, you're having issues with the warrior swarm which means you're letting them build up. Don't do that. As I said before this isn't a deck you can just respond you, you have to pre-emptive strike those buildings before the C2A gets calls or you'll be in immediate defense mode which can easily cost you the game (once C2A goes full offense it's just wave after wave until you get the right summon to turn the table which is unlikely if it's gone this far). Pay attention to what your opponent is doing and pre-empt the C2A, the little stuff you can just drop pretty much any pseudotank or the normal "anti-ratbo" type stuff and the critters the C2A drops will go down quick. easy win. I really don't see what the complaint is beyond "it's new and I don't know what to do."
Mana frenzy on a C2A is a PITA because you end up with so many buildings you literally cannot play anything, which causes the enemy units to bunch of and deathball push you back. once in Mana frenzy I've lost more than won, the trick is getting the warriors to push through and kill before that point (preferrably asap and then trying to cycle through your cards wuickly so you can hit with another wave of warriors).
only 1k minus whatever % has been lost due to the timer. Again this is something that's great for temporary relief and I was one of the first adopters of using this card when everyone else said it was useless... but it definitely has it's limits.
except that DWs in a deck which already has such high cost cards and limited counter potential is going to get you instantly wrecked by anything that can do a reasonably quick push. Swarms will end you too fast if you're trying to play a C2A DW deck... I've seen plenty of people TRY this and I have yet to see any of them win vs any of my decks (including a rediculous spell based deck I was doing for lulz). Crying about DW doesn't fix anything, less so when he's already been nerfed and is a complete mana waste until late game. The best thing those tombstones can resurrect in a C2A deck is one of the warriors, in which case it's back there alone (or with the second) and is easy pickings for any response.
Again you're saying that "my 2-4 cost isn't countering your 6 cost" when in most cases they'll STILL do enough damage to wipe out the concept of a useful C2A cast. Also, you're entirely incorrect about the scrat launcher - place it correctly and it'll completely wipe out the enemy buildings.
I would love to see the actual numbers on the win rates for decks with C2A in them. that'd kill this ignorant thought pretty quick. People seem to assume that "I don't know how to beat this so no one does and it needs to be nerfed" instead of "what am I doing incorrectly or what can I do better to combat X strategy." ... That'll be a rant If I keep going; you get the point.
I would be totally in agreement with this if the cost of C2A was dropped so that it was viable on other masters. As I've said in the current state the mana equivilance to other casts is useless compared to other cards without the chance (or plan) for a 0 cost bonus or two. Actualy; I like this, it would make the card viable on all the other masters also. Lower the cost and change tombstones to minions (changing to spells would affect dragons roost in a similar manner as currently).
Do the math. You're wrong. I really do with this was something I could just say "it's your opinion" but this is a math issue which is a direct true or false.
2 buildings in that location would, on average, would be CBG and bridge shine which comes to 9. Why would you target tombstones unless they would die? I've never seen a good player drop a wall and ghost turret in the far back like that... you're again focusing on trying to become so mana effective that you're literally breaking the mold. Don't expect a 4 casting cost to beat a 6 or 9 as a hard counter, it has better uses.
Man you are tiring. Stop reiterating that "wah I can't beat something with something else at half the cost." Based on your post all I can see is "I want to beat a 6 cost with 2 cost" and "beat a 6+ cost with 4 cost"... the cards are simple to counter against, you just have to think ahead, and stop blaming cards for being "too powerful" when you can easily play against them.
Rammer will always get at least 1 hit in which either immediately kills one of the buildings or heavily damages and shortens the timer on the wall... luse him correctly and he pays for himself instantly. similar for cleaver if you aren't into rammer though he's a bit more expensive.
Zepplin is meant to run in above other units or hit targets that are undefended (which is easy to find against a C2A deck)
Scrat Tower costs more but guarantees at least 1 building kill , normally all of them - assuming you aren't just placing it down ignorantly.
Seems like you need more experience with how line defenses work. Once you figure out the game I think you'll do better with this (or maybe you just don't understand the style of cards they are and are playing them backwards for whatever reason). Stop saying they don't do X because they do - and if they aren't for you then you're doing something wrong.
the only card that is a refund is the mana puff. Once a cost is paid that mana is gone. The C2A grows in mana efficiency but not lower in cost as more buildings are added. it's like saying if you buy 2 apples I'll give you an apple... either way you're still having bought the 2 apples.
Here you've proven you don't understand the counters even though they have been repeatedly mentioned. If you need practice with it then do so, but just because you're using them incorrectly doesn't mean the game needs to change.
Saying something 10 times in the same block of text and trying to claim they are separate statements is whining. So yes you were whining.
What logic? The only "logic" you've claimed so far is "it doesn't work for me, therefore it isn't going to work for anyone" which is ridiculous and illogical.
referencing "someone else" claiming 80-90%, and here's "their" quote:
Oh look, that's you! Maybe you should cite your own posts as if you were the one that wrote them. Since you did. and it's still ignorant.
If you're trying to counter the deck then take the advice given and stop trying to argue for balance changes when you simly don't understand the current balance.
We're here to help, but whining and ignorant assumptions will get you nowhere.
So again, you don't understand what you're talking about.
Edit:
You completely bypassed the part where I said "...80% win rate gets wrecked by ..."
For thread length sake I'm not going to re-quote everything, but seriously... pay attention and practice and you'll get there.
I don't think your numbers on building costs were accurate, nor the effectiveness of the counters you said. We've probably versed before but I don't really remember what league you're in or deck you're using, but...
...going off the majority of Call to Arm decks that I struggle against in the diamond-ish league, none of them are using any building that costs more than 3. The buildings that I see are: ghost turret, xp shrine, wall (supplemented with Mordar's tombs). And each of those 3 mana buildings nets you a 3 mana warrior, so the mana cost gets justified pretty quickly.
Both wall and xp shrine can last long enough to be cycled to again if they are not attacked (hence why I'm saying a few buildings do last). Wall will often last long enough that it will survive a failed attack by the time they are ready to use call to arms. Rammers die quickly to most things, particularly if there is a ghost turret behind a wall. If it only manages 1 hit, the wall will still be at ~80% life. Zeppelin really doesn't have much life. Maybe it gets one attack off on their wall before it dies to some archers, marines, turret. Not enough to be of a concern. And scrat launcher needs to be placed close enough for ranged units to attack it from the other side for all but increased ranged Stormbringer. So it potentially won't last long enough to do serious damage to the wall.
Most players I see will put down the xp shrine first, at the back. Far enough away that I've seen Zeppelins not even try to switch targets to it. This forces the opponent to try to attack it with something, which is then when the wall + ghost turret comes down to counter. Then ready for a 4 warrior Call to Arms, which only gets stronger as the game goes on (when the warriors start being resurrected too). To the point where they could seemingly have nothing on the field, drop an xp shrine, a wall, two tombs and call to arms in a very short time period (5 warriors). Maybe your deck is different, I dunno.
I've played you a few times, and i think we're about even when it comes to matches against each other but i can't guarantee that I was using my C2A at the time. Checked my replays and it's been a day or two since then... might start making backups of various plays or figure out a way to increase the size of my replays folder. I do remember enjoying matches against you irregardless which of us won.
I haven't seen any C2A decks without laser win - it's the only building that can hit ranged units on the other side of a wall and is the expected counter to most heavy tanks. Ghost if you have it might be able to replace but then you miss out on an extra building and if the enemy drops AA behind then you're SOL. What are you seeing those decks use to counter heavy tanks?
The issue i've run into more often than not while playing the C2A deck is that the starter hand is generally complete crap. I'll get either all buildings+C2A which means they start with bridges and I'm forced to begin on a defense, or I'll get my weak units and C2A doesn't show up until the final draw when it's too late into the start to make any reasonable plays. The deck really needs the first round through the deck to line up the cards where you need them to be effective... most of my losses are on the first 4-5 casts as I either can't keep the buildings up (if they properly swarm or are using the counters mentioned), or they play the war of attrition where I can't get a decent count of buildings to drop a C2A and are able to continually re-steal the bridges. So either really short games where I get stomped, medium games where I tend to turn it back and my deck order gives me the draws to win, or long games which can go either way depending on how they play.
When dropping those buildings, in my experience, I try to make sure they have some use on the board other than "just a count for the C2A" but generally that's all they end up being, which means I didn't gain anything mana-wise and in some cases (laser) they actually cost me efficiency in the long run. If I'm already on the offense this effect is even more likely. That's where my argument that the tombstones are needed for mana efficiency comes into play.
While it really depends on the deck you're playing (vs C2A) I really don't see why you would start a match with zepplin... as I've said before it's a 2 cost card that's not intended to take hits, send it behind other units not out on it's own. If the C2A player gets the "perfect hand" as you've described I can somewhat see where some would find issue but I believe maybe once out of 20 games I've seen that happen for me. Even then basing game change on the expectation of a "perfect hand" which is still counterable by similar cost units isn't logical (they drop their perfect hand, you can easily counter with either a single colossus, tank+annihilator/grenadier, or boomer/reboomer to soften them up for other units/master attacks). Again, the C2A isn't a deck you can counter with reaction... that normally just plays into the warrior swarm.
Definitely learned a lot from this discussion. Tons of strategy and counter talk. Maybe I'll give the C2A deck another shot, as I was failing with it quite badly haha.
Both Rammer and Zepplin are not mana efficient building counters. Zepplin even less when you count the support troops you have to send in to die against a Ghost Tower.
I haven't tried the Scrat launcher, but i don't think it would help much. Scrat launcher too close to the middle can be easily countered by a Ghost Tower, Plasma or Crossbows placed next to the gap. And if you don't have that you can just place a Wall. The Scrat Launcher can at most do 1000hp dmg in it's 30 sec live. This is exactly the same as the Wall. So 3 mana counters your 5 mana Scrat Launcher.
You achieve nothing mana efficient and all the c2a player wants is reach mid-late game so he can get 2 Tomb Stones or even into mana frenzy. So you either beat him very quick early on or you need to have a much better late game with something like a DW.