Masterwork war bow worth it?

[Clor]

I'm playing as a mainly archer specialist using a regular warbow, at what point is it worth it investing the extra skill points into powerdraw to use the masterwork war bow? I think it does 30 base damage vs the 25 of a regular bow. Right now a headshot kills most enemies in one shot, needs 2 for lords and high level troops, and 2 body shots for a low level enemy, 3-4 for a higher one. Any idea what kind of improvement I could expect over that with the Masterwork?
Thanks

[Keijo]

30 vs 25 is huge bonus, and it's always worth investing in powerdraw anyway since each point adds 14% damage until youre four above the minimum pd of the bow. So with warbow you stop getting benefits after 8 power draw.

Quessing masterwork would be 6 pd, going from 4 to 6 with +5 dam in the bow should increase your damage per shot by 44% or so.

[Včelí medvídek]

Originally posted by Keijo:

30 vs 25 is huge bonus, and it's always worth investing in powerdraw anyway since each point adds 14% damage until youre four above the minimum pd of the bow. So with warbow you stop getting benefits after 8 power draw.

Quessing masterwork would be 6 pd, going from 4 to 6 with +5 dam in the bow should increase your damage per shot by 44% or so.

EDIT: found part of this info invalid, please seeTuidjy post below.

This is important and need need be careful.

Unless you have more Powerdraw than masterwork needs (+3 for bonus aim and +14% per elvel) it will end with actual LOSS of damage and acccuracy over using same type of bow with Power draw bonus.

Lets count it (I dont recal exatc numbers but hope it will be clear anyway)

Let say you have ordinary bow with PD 2 req. and damage 20
And amsterwork bow with PD 6 as requirement and damage 25

At PD 6 you will do 20+64% (about 33) dmg with aim bonus with ordinary bow and 25! only without aim bonus with masterwork bow.

Actually you first catch up with PD 8 (25 +28%) and need PD 9 to get aim bonus - so it starts be realy btter at PD 9+

(but as amtetr of fact, at PD 10, ordinary bow damage is still maxed on 33, while masterwork goes up to some 45)

[Clor]

That's really good information to know, thanks guys. I may stop for a little and round out my build a little, then put the extra points into power draw once I can get a net benefit.

[Nonbinary]

i would say its never bad to invest points in power draw if you stay an archer, it always increases damage no matter what bows you have, worthless or masterwork. i think the question is more when you should buy a masterwork one, it could only take one loss in battle and have it looted away by the enemy. but if you already have set up a nice couple of enterprises, go for it, kill plenty and fast, get riches get ladies

[Tuidjy]

Wow. A lot of bad info in this thread.

i would say its never bad to invest points in power draw if you stay an archer, it always increases damage no matter what bows you have, worthless or masterwork.

Not true. If you have a Power Draw 2 bow, you will get no damage increase from raising your Power Draw from 6 to 10. None, except the bonus you'd get from advancing your Strength to get there.

Unless you have more Powerdraw than masterwork needs (+3 for bonus aim and +14% per elvel) it will end with actual LOSS of damage and acccuracy over using same type of bow with Power draw bonus.

There is no loss of damage for using a bow with higher Power Draw. There can be a loss of accuracy, and it may take you longer to draw the bow to get the maximum possible damage, but there is no built in loss of damage.

Let say you have ordinary bow with PD 2 req. and damage 20
And amsterwork bow with PD 6 as requirement and damage 25

At PD 6 you will do 20+64% (about 33) dmg with aim bonus with ordinary bow and 25! only without aim bonus with masterwork bow.

First, there is no such thing as aim bonus loss if you draw and hold for the right amount of time, with either bow. There is no real aim bonus either, and I've looked into the code for Native. There is something that may looks like a penalty, but that's from the way damage increases and decreases depending on how long you hold the shot.

Even disregarding the above, the math is wrong. At Power Draw 6, you get a 1.84 multiplier to damage for both bows. The multiplier is on top of proficiency and strength bonuses (independent of Power Draw) I have absolutely no clue what the 64% can possibly be.

(but as amtetr of fact, at PD 10, ordinary bow damage is still maxed on 33, while masterwork goes up to some 45)

Once again, I have no idea where these numbers come from. Disregarding strength and proficiency, with Power Draw 10, a masterwork war bow firing Khergit arrows does 2.40 x ( 30 + 3) = 79.2 damage. Add the bonus from Strength 30 (+6) and the multiplicative bonus from proficiency, for example, 500 (1.6) and you get damage well over 100.

Yes, it is worth, in Native, to use the best bow, if you can afford the stat and skill points to get to Power Draw 10. There are a few mods where magic bows with low Power Draw make it unnecessary to advance Power Draw very much, like in Phantasy Calradia, but in nearly every other mod, maxed Power Draw with the most powerful bow is the way to go.

[Včelí medvídek]

@Tuidjy - you are right and I was wrong with damge bonus (for some reason I was convinced power draw bonus damage counts only for power draw that si OVER requirement)

I also feel like I counted drunk - 64 "should be" 4x14 = 56 (so it is still wrong but could make sense now I counted it as amx bonus 4x14 % to base damage)

I would say the aim/accuracy bonus is real though. I recall you need have 3 points over PD req. for it.

Just side note - especialyl for horse archery I found way more useful speed of bow rather than "best" one since damage is high enough thanks power draw.

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by Tuidjy:

Wow. A lot of bad info in this thread.

i would say its never bad to invest points in power draw if you stay an archer, it always increases damage no matter what bows you have, worthless or masterwork.

Not true. If you have a Power Draw 2 bow, you will get no damage increase from raising your Power Draw from 6 to 10. None, except the bonus you'd get from advancing your Strength to get there.

Unless you have more Powerdraw than masterwork needs (+3 for bonus aim and +14% per elvel) it will end with actual LOSS of damage and acccuracy over using same type of bow with Power draw bonus.

There is no loss of damage for using a bow with higher Power Draw. There can be a loss of accuracy, and it may take you longer to draw the bow to get the maximum possible damage, but there is no built in loss of damage.

Let say you have ordinary bow with PD 2 req. and damage 20
And amsterwork bow with PD 6 as requirement and damage 25

At PD 6 you will do 20+64% (about 33) dmg with aim bonus with ordinary bow and 25! only without aim bonus with masterwork bow.

First, there is no such thing as aim bonus loss if you draw and hold for the right amount of time, with either bow. There is no real aim bonus either, and I've looked into the code for Native. There is something that may looks like a penalty, but that's from the way damage increases and decreases depending on how long you hold the shot.

Even disregarding the above, the math is wrong. At Power Draw 6, you get a 1.84 multiplier to damage for both bows. The multiplier is on top of proficiency and strength bonuses (independent of Power Draw) I have absolutely no clue what the 64% can possibly be.

(but as amtetr of fact, at PD 10, ordinary bow damage is still maxed on 33, while masterwork goes up to some 45)

Once again, I have no idea where these numbers come from. Disregarding strength and proficiency, with Power Draw 10, a masterwork war bow firing Khergit arrows does 2.40 x ( 30 + 3) = 79.2 damage. Add the bonus from Strength 30 (+6) and the multiplicative bonus from proficiency, for example, 500 (1.6) and you get damage well over 100.

Yes, it is worth, in Native, to use the best bow, if you can afford the stat and skill points to get to Power Draw 10. There are a few mods where magic bows with low Power Draw make it unnecessary to advance Power Draw very much, like in Phantasy Calradia, but in nearly every other mod, maxed Power Draw with the most powerful bow is the way to go.

i never heard of anyone raising power draw to 10, i know i never do that myself. i just meant that raising it till he can use masterwork warbow wouldnt be a bad idea

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

Originally posted by Tuidjy:

Yes, it is worth, in Native, to use the best bow, if you can afford the stat and skill points to get to Power Draw 10. There are a few mods where magic bows with low Power Draw make it unnecessary to advance Power Draw very much, like in Phantasy Calradia, but in nearly every other mod, maxed Power Draw with the most powerful bow is the way to go.

i never heard of anyone raising power draw to 10, i know i never do that myself. i just meant that raising it till he can use masterwork warbow wouldnt be a bad idea

I do it in practically every mod.

Here[i.imgur.com] is a Power Draw 10 character in Gekokujo, here is one in Viking Conquest, and I could post ten more if I were to launch all modules one by one.

You have not experienced real power in Warband until you have played a maxed archer. In many mods, it means one shot kills even when hitting a heavily armored chest, hundreds of kills in sieges, and 15 vs 1200 victories in the field... at 135%+ difficulty.

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by Tuidjy:

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

i never heard of anyone raising power draw to 10, i know i never do that myself. i just meant that raising it till he can use masterwork warbow wouldnt be a bad idea

I do it in practically every mod.

Here[i.imgur.com] is a Power Draw 10 character in Gekokujo, here is one in Viking Conquest, and I could post ten more if I were to launch all modules one by one.

You have not experienced real power in Warband until you have played a maxed archer. In many mods, it means one shot kills even when hitting a heavily armored chest, hundreds of kills in sieges, and 15 vs 1200 victories in the field... at 135%+ difficulty.

no worries, ive played with a cheat character before and experienced the fun of power draw 10 when i felt like it. but you can deal lethal hits with a power draw of 7 for example with a war bow on nearly anything, there is practically no need to go for the extra points, most of the high tier troops and lords have probably already recieved some points of damage in the heat of battle, they are done once you take your shot

im playing archer myself currently, i killed a couple sarranid horsemen and mamlukes in one shot, and took down 2 lords quick in the same battle. i have my power draw on 7, and i see no reason to continue improving that. maybe some athletics and party skills would do now

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

Originally posted by Tuidjy:

You have not experienced real power in Warband until you have played a maxed archer. In many mods, it means one shot kills even when hitting a heavily armored chest, hundreds of kills in sieges, and 15 vs 1200 victories in the field... at 135%+ difficulty.

no worries, ive played with a cheat character before and experienced the fun of power draw 10 when i felt like it. but you can deal lethal hits with a power draw of 7 for example with a war bow on nearly anything, there is practically no need to go for the extra points, most of the high tier troops and lords have probably already recieved some points of damage in the heat of battle, they are done once you take your shot

None of these characters are cheated or even imported. As a matter of fact, the story of the Gekokujo one can be found from day one, with screenshots and videos every now and then.

As for whether one needs the extra 20-40 point of raw damage? When you are fighting at 1:50 odds, as when you are doing a companion only challenge, it matters a lot whether you can drop an enemy with one shot or two.

And that's not even talking about hard mods like Perisno, PoP or Floris Expanded, where troop levels and proficiencies go as high as double and triple those of Native. Shooting level 20 Sarranids in the face is one thing... trying to break a charge of level 50 heavy knights mounted on dragons, or 150 hit points giants, or armor 100 diamond golems is another.

In relatively realistic mods, like Viking Conquest, 1257AD and La Guerre de Cent Ans, maxed power draw is even mod important, because you will not be shooting arrows through platemail... you will need quite a few shots even at Power Draw 10 and proficiency 500.

[Nonbinary]

Originally posted by Tuidjy:

Originally posted by vilju norkedof (performer):

no worries, ive played with a cheat character before and experienced the fun of power draw 10 when i felt like it. but you can deal lethal hits with a power draw of 7 for example with a war bow on nearly anything, there is practically no need to go for the extra points, most of the high tier troops and lords have probably already recieved some points of damage in the heat of battle, they are done once you take your shot

None of these characters are cheated or even imported. As a matter of fact, the story of the Gekokujo one can be found from day one, with screenshots and videos every now and then.

As for whether one needs the extra 20-40 point of raw damage? When you are fighting at 1:50 odds, as when you are doing a companion only challenge, it matters a lot whether you can drop an enemy with one shot or two.

And that's not even talking about hard mods like Perisno, PoP or Floris Expanded, where troop levels and proficiencies go as high as double and triple those of Native. Shooting level 20 Sarranids in the face is one thing... trying to break a charge of level 50 heavy knights mounted on dragons, or 150 hit points giants, or diamond golems is another.

In relatively realistic mods, like Viking Conquest, 1257AD and La Guerre de Cent Ans, maxed power draw is even mod important, because you will not be shooting arrows through platemail... you will need quite a few shots even at Power Draw 10 and proficiency 500.

dont get me wrong, i didnt say those were cheating characters, they look legit and well far into the game. but i have tried power draw 10, and mostly i find those last points unecessary, and that they could have been spend somewhere else. i dont know when you reached it to 10, but if it was much later on i can understand the choice

im taking native game more into account. im not a big fan most mods, i do play gekokujo but those yumi bows have a much higher damage than native ones and again i wouldnt go the extra mile with power draw

i can understand that 1 lethal shot can do wonders compared to 2 shots, but those points spent to reach that one perfect shot on anything could be distributed somewhere else in my opinion, so that miracles happen in other ways during tough battles. you dont necessarily have to depend on the bow only when in an unfair battle, even if youre an archer.
if jeremus gets knocked out, who will be healing and turning back hero's health points afterwards for example (native). having 1-3 points in wound treatment, even if you have a companion who is a healer, can be a party saver. in the end i wont value my skills higher than i value my troops, and there are other skills that come in handy when you least expect it, and do great benefit in those times