MvM payload gamemode

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I've been thinking about writing a server mod to make it possible to have MvM payload maps, where the bots push the bomb cart instead of carrying the bomb flag.

This thread is primarily just for brainstorming ideas and figuring out how the gamemode ought to work. The mod doesn't actually exist yet.

The discussion for this used to be in another thread but I figured it'd be better to split it off into its own discussion.

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Continued from this post on the other thread.

Originally posted by Dayal:

By the way, anything I should do different in order to make bots push the cart? Like perhaps changing the logic of the map? Because I'm a bit confused as to how to set it up properly.

It'll probably work like this: put a tf_logic_mann_vs_machine in the map, plus all the standard entities that would go in a normal payload map. That should be enough for the server to able to detect that it's an MvM payload map, once I write the code for that.

Basically the way mvm_mannhattan works is that it has the tf_logic_mann_vs_machine, plus it has control points and a control point master entity. So when the tf_gamerules entity activates at map load, it detects the tf_logic_mann_vs_machine and sets the gamemode to MvM; then right after that it also notices that there are control points, so it activates the control point HUD.

You shouldn't need any item_teamflag or flag capture zone entities. The nav mesh generation will probably throw a fit about the lack of a flag capture zone, because it doesn't know any better.

As for how the TFBot AI figures out which type of gamemode action to use, that's all done "automatically" on the server side. See here[github.com] to get an idea of how this is done. Essentially the bot AI just checks a couple of things in tf_gamerules that say which game mode it is (based on the tf_logic_* entities and the presence of stuff like control points or payload carts).

Obviously the current TFBot code assumes that MvM means CTF gamemode, and that will be overridden.

[76561198199727671]

Let's make it an ordinary pl for now, test and see where can we add more mvm-like mechanics not to screw it up.

[Dayal]

Let's hope this idea will work with multiple spawns/payloads, so that bots can distinguish the different payloads they're suppose to push. Blocky map stage should be finished around monday/tuesday or so.

[Biggest Boss [Knockout]]

A payload mvm map would surely get the attention of valve if a community mvm update were to be go public
assuming that the iron gauntlet wont be a real community update with the "blessings" of valve.

[Dayal]

I don't think I'm going to participate in the Iron Gauntlet with this map. Though I'm not the only one who has anything to say about that.

[Dayal]

I think I'm going to need a bit of help in the later stages of the map, I'm afraid.

[Hell-met]

there's a reason valve pays map makers. they know it's utter garbage to deal with. godspeed to you

[Quenquent the babysitter]

I'm here if you need help.

[Dayal]

It's mostly to make it look more natural. Because oh boy, I'm having a hard time setting up slopes correctly. So I have no idea how that will go when I'm trying to make it non-blocky.

[Dayal]

I think the map will be in state tomorrow to be tested to see if pl mvm works. Just need to correct some minor things, get some lightning done so it doesn't look like the inside of a box and some pl stuff. I did screw up the map's scaling, because as of now, everything is too compact in order to make mvm work on it properly. So I will need to expand it a bit more. And I also have a difficult time to create proper tank paths due payload tracks.

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Originally posted by Dayal:

I think the map will be in state tomorrow to be tested to see if pl mvm works.

I guess I'd better get working on inventing this nonexistent mod soon then...


The past couple of days I've been working on the "make red bots have a vague sense of how to play as a defender in MvM mode" mod and it's coming along great. Mostly I've been going through and applying fixes for each of the cases where the game makes stupid assumptions about "bot = invading robot" and "MvM mode = bots must be invading robots" to un-break various things.

I'm thinking about possibly adding on a few small extras to it, so that e.g. scout bots will actively attempt to collect money and whatnot. Without a ton of effort, I believe I can create a bot AI that is better at playing MvM than your average idiot noob. And I'm not even kidding about that.

[Dayal]

I'm not pushing you or anything, if the mod isn't done yet, then I can still polish some other things before testing, because goshdarn slopes. As of right now, the map is really ugly, I just meant it's in a state where it's already possible to test it. But it's not fit for mvm yet, far from it.

[Hell-met]

are the red bots just boring players with AI or actually robots like blu

templates vs templates. finally spectator has his own gamemode.

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It's actually kind of impressive to watch bots be able to beat several waves of normal missions all by themselves. It's kind of cute. Mentally you think to yourself about how much better they play than your average group of Boot Camp idiot noobs.

They're too dumb to do certain things like buying upgrades. But at the same time, they are smart enough to do stuff like go for health/ammo packs when they need it (because they use the PvP bot logic). And they switch weapons situationally and actually will retreat in certain situations and so forth. And medics pick heal targets in a less restricted (less squad-oriented) PvP manner. So they actually are somewhat less robotic than the MvM invader bots.

The snipers can actually hit headshots on hard/expert. I watched a sniper bot save the wave a couple times with that.


Yes, I know, this is ultimately pointless. But it is entertaining. And in a certain sense, it's almost like a carefully crafted work of satire pointing out how bot-like and idiotic MvM players often are.


I'm thinking about maybe adding some extra features, like making bots buy upgrades based on some simple fixed upgrade paths. Shouldn't actually be too difficult.

I'll probably put in different upgrade paths based on bot skill, so expert bots will buy sensible upgrades, and easy bots will buy stupid useless ♥♥♥♥, as if they're actual noobs.

I may do something similar for item loadouts. Easy defender bots will equip stupid idiotic ♥♥♥♥, normal defender bots will be mindless strict meta adherants, and hard/expert defender bots will actually equip useful stuff that may or may not be meta. (Only to the extent that the bots are capable of using the items, obviously.)

Also I'll probably add on to the AI a bit so that they actually bother to pick up money. Maybe I'll make a new AI behavior for scouts... easy scouts just run around and don't do anything, normal scouts religiously avoid shooting anything and just collect money, hard scouts will mark/milk and collect money but otherwise avoid being useful, and expert scouts actually shoot stuff and do support and collect money.

It'll be glorious, I tell you, glorious.

[Dayal]

On a second thought, I think I'm going to delay the map test untill Tuesday. A friend of mine will visit tomorrow (or today depending on where you live) and I don't think she likes to watch mapping.