Nerf the afterburn

[LieutenantDevil]

So many undeserved kills because of this, like christ why does it have to be this long?!

[Kleiner's final Form]

Originally posted by Soggy Bread:

Originally posted by Kleiner's final Form:

You just listed examples of the game doing a bad job at... well, multiple things. Or frustration because of your own failure. Since the latter doesn't apply to this reasoning you basically just supported by argument by listing precedents, which while not necessarily possible to fix exist as acknowledged by you.

You made absolutely no sense because your first comment was so unreasonably vague, but sure man.

vague? Literally all you talked about was the game putting challenges in your way. I question why it puts challenges in our way, but not in the pyros way. Then you list other situations which frustrate only one player, to which I respond by saying that these are all scenarios that are majorly considered "unfair", at least to an extent (and by the way, specifc scenarios really don't scale up to just switching classes, not for Sniper and neither for Pyro). The other half of those were inflective frustration because the given subject did bad on it's own.

And please, if you're gonna call out a strawman in your next comment use meaningful differences, not vague technicalities.

[Uscari]

Originally posted by GhastlyGhostJr:

That should not be taken into account when balancing anything.

You said it was "added on" as if it's an artificial improvement to fix a garbage weapon. It's a fundamental attribute of a flamethrower it was designed specifically around this mechanic. It's not added on, it's not a bandaid, it IS the flamethrower.

Originally posted by GhastlyGhostJr:

Now that’s just sugar coating what the interaction really is. It’s like saying sticky spam is demo tactically engaging the enemy to disperse the crowd and hold the ground. It’s really not that hard to do. The only difference here is the skill needed to light people on fire. As long as the flamethrower requires zero aim and still does above 80 dps. It will always be stronger than it should be against opponents.

Sticky spam can be tactfully engaging an enemy to disperse crowds, because you have to position yourself and time your attack in such a way that the enemy is distracted, you have an escape route, you have optimal angles for sticky spam, etc.

I agree currently the flamethrower is stronger against groups than it should be, but not because of afterburn.

Originally posted by GhastlyGhostJr:

Pistols, SMGs and Syringe guns are all secondaries for finishing someone off and they actually require aim unlike the flamethrower, in addition to having a magazine to increase the skill indexing.

Sentries and the minigun are problematic but that’s for another thread

Originally posted by GhastlyGhostJr:

And those are the most balanced classes that follow this “rule”

The ones that don’t end up paling in comparison in terms of skill.

My only point is that stream damage is quite prevalent in TF2, and not everything needs to revolve around burst damage. Burst damage is fun to use mechanically but TF2 isn't just a game about mechanical skill, it's also about strategic, team-oriented skill.

Originally posted by GhastlyGhostJr:

And medic is the most powerful class

What's your point? You want to nerf Medic or make his medigun deal burst healing?

Originally posted by GhastlyGhostJr:

Sure more weapons makes the game more complex but that isn’t a reason to keep blatantly unfun mechanics.

Actually it is. The strategic depth of having a variety of damage types can occasionally outweigh the individual engagement of more binary, aim-driven combat.

Take for instance a sentry. There's nothing fun about fighting a sentry in and of itself, but there is fun to be had in coordinating with your team in a complex series of moves to destroy a sentry. Getting a spy to sap, protecting the medic to get an uber, isolating the engineer, etc.

Originally posted by GhastlyGhostJr:

Almost all games are stream damage. For the exception of the “sniper” of a game.

A lot of shooters do not have a damage fall off system as pronounced as TF2, and the damage relative to health in TF2 is lower than most games. Many shooters allow you to score headshots from very far away with virtually any weapon.

Sure all games have stream damage of some kind, but many modern shooters rely heavier on burst damage.

Originally posted by GhastlyGhostJr:

That’s not true. With an objective at hand it is factually impossible to avoid a pyro getting close to you in a lot of situations. If you could truly avoid a pyro then the pyro should have zero damage on his flamethrower by the end of any high level game.

Just because you are pressured to push forward doesn't mean you are compelled by some divine force to constantly hold w.

Naturally when trying to capture an objective you run a greater risk of running into a Pyro, but that's the whole point of time limits, you budget your time in such a way to provide you an opportunity to scout the area, make preparations (sentries, stickytraps, snipers, etc), and then push cautiously.

One of the great things about Pyro is that he incentivizes a more cautious and situationally aware playstyle among competent players.

Originally posted by GhastlyGhostJr:

100% wrong. The range cap is not a big problem unless you’re testing class effectiveness on a flat plane with no objective.

The other team literally has to push something at some point in which case a pyro will literally have them walk into range for him. Rockets are infinitely harder to deal ideal damage with. A very slow projectile speed means they’re effectively hard locked against anyone who can move. If I walk into an I closed space as soldier and I see a player, sure I may be able to shoot the ground to hurt them. But as pyro I could out damage the splash damage and spazz my mouse around and blind, and kill the guy. Again look at the amount of new players on pyro. There’s a reason for that. Combine no aim required + stream damage + no magazine + high max ammo count and you have the easiest to use weapon.

You are acting as if they can't do anything to dislodge a Pyro from an objective without entering his range. When you have projectiles that travel 10x the length the flames, and hitscan weaponry with no range cap and can't be reflected, it's quite possible to force a Pyro off a point without going anywhere near him. (Charged stickies, Snipers, Heavies, Explosive spam on corners, etc.)

Spazzing out as Pyro won't even remotely beat a Soldier's close range rockets in a DPS race. More likely than not it will take only 2 shots with Soldier's rocket launcher to kill, or .8 seconds. Meanwhile to deal the same damage a spazzing Pyro will be flaming for 2+ seconds.

Pyro has a low skill floor but a high skill ceiling. There are plenty of new players who go Soldier and Scout as well.

Originally posted by GhastlyGhostJr:

It’s good because if it’s bleed. With the projectile time at hand you are able to out dps the guillotine with the pistol. You will get able 3-4 shots off before the guillotine hits the enemy because of the travel time. The bleed is what makes someone retreat which is why it’s problematic.

There's not much reason to shoot 3-4 shots with a pistol when you can just use your scattergun for comparable damage.

The only time the pistol worth using in general is you expect to be flanked and want scattergun shots in reserve or if you've run out of scattergun shots and need to put out another 20-30dmg immediately. Other than that pistol is rarely worth using at most ranges.

Meanwhile with the cleaver, instead of wasting time trying to compete with Scattergun's damage, you let it fly and return to your scattergun, as it passively regens for you to make another attempt at a range scattergun would objectively do worse in.

Originally posted by GhastlyGhostJr:

And that’s why it’s a problem. It’s sole purpose is to be annoying and that shouldn’t exist, specially when it’s easy to use.

1. Not easy to use.

2. Sometimes in order to make a team oriented game have strategic depth, you have to include mechanics that annoying on an individual level.

There's nothing fun on an individual level about dealing with:

-Buffed heavies
-Level 3 sentries
-Sniper in general
-Spies in general
-Explosive choke spam
-Sticky traps
-Ubers
-Banners

Most of the mechanics that add strategic depth to the game end up annoying someone on an individual level. Afterburn is no exception, but it's essential for balancing the strategic layout of the game. It puts Medics in their place, it encourages team members to spread out, it's a check on Sniper, and it's a check on Spy.

[GhastlyGhostJr]

Originally posted by Tramuntana:

Originally posted by GhastlyGhostJr:

This applies to every flare gun.

Specially the detonator

Does anyone even use it as an actual weapon?

The only reason I ever fire it somewhere else than the ground or right behind myself is when I just airblasted something with the Dragon's Fury, to finish off a Scout running away, or very very rarely to ensure my Postal Pummeler deals maximum damage. And those situations happen around once every ten games I play with it...

Most pyros see its not the scorch shot and its slightly harder to use so they dont use it

[Pancakelover]

Originally posted by Lieutenant_Devil:

Originally posted by SN0IPE:

Medics can counter afterburn with their self heal

They can also extinguish people along with competent pyros

Engies can build dispensers that extinguish

There’s really no need. Just step on a health kit

1. Doesn't always help, I've died countless of times from afterburn as medic, if you're below 30 hp you might aswell forget it and die.

2. How does a medic extinguish a teammate? This I wanna know. I also don't trust f2p pyros with saving my life.

3. They don't exactly extinguish but yeah.

4. On maps with low amounts of health kits *2fort* this doesn't always help out

1. if a pyro left you on 30 hp a soldier or demo or scout wouldve killed you in that time. if anything pyro is weaker cause you have the chance to live.

2. medic heals at 24/hp a sec. that is basically extinguishing. and the f2p pyros only apply to f2p's. you cant blame them for not knowing how to play the game. one with actual experience will 9 times out of 10 extinguish you

3. just like a med a dispencer can out heal the afterburn. only if you are at like 5 hp or less can you die under the care of a dispencer.

4. if we're using 2fort as an example just jump in the water. and 2fort has scarce health packs because its a bad map. if that annoys you dont play it.

[xo]

Originally posted by bottle gang:

Originally posted by Lieutenant_Devil:

1. Doesn't always help, I've died countless of times from afterburn as medic, if you're below 30 hp you might aswell forget it and die.

2. How does a medic extinguish a teammate? This I wanna know. I also don't trust f2p pyros with saving my life.

3. They don't exactly extinguish but yeah.

4. On maps with low amounts of health kits *2fort* this doesn't always help out

1. if a pyro left you on 30 hp a soldier or demo or scout wouldve killed you in that time. if anything pyro is weaker cause you have the chance to live.

2. medic heals at 24/hp a sec. that is basically extinguishing. and the f2p pyros only apply to f2p's. you cant blame them for not knowing how to play the game. one with actual experience will 9 times out of 10 extinguish you

3. just like a med a dispencer can out heal the afterburn. only if you are at like 5 hp or less can you die under the care of a dispencer.

4. if we're using 2fort as an example just jump in the water. and 2fort has scarce health packs because its a bad map. if that annoys you dont play it.

Heals 24 HP a sec while you’re on fire?

[Trouser Snivy]

Originally posted by Tramuntana:

Does anyone even use it as an actual weapon?

The only reason I ever fire it somewhere else than the ground or right behind myself is when I just airblasted something with the Dragon's Fury, to finish off a Scout running away, or very very rarely to ensure my Postal Pummeler deals maximum damage. And those situations happen around once every ten games I play with it...

https://steamcommunity.com/id/moodypyro this guy doesn't play anymore but is one of the best DM pyros I've ever met and used the detonator religiously. You can not escape it. Retreating on high ground around cover? Yeah you'll get air-detted. Detonator is just as ♥♥♥♥♥♥ as any other flare gun. All three are stupid.
His stranges aren't very accurate. He used the flare gun to flex but when he wanted to win, he went detonator.

[Trouser Snivy]

Originally posted by Uscari:

the longer message

My discussions formatting is pretty poor and honestly I am way too lazy (tired actually) to even bother separating all the quote sections to address everything individually, so I'm just gonna give an extremely ugly, disorganized response to some of the things you said.

Pyro doesn't incentivize ♥♥♥♥ further than "stay out of his radius," which is a huge problem in an objective-based game. If you don't think pyro can defeat scout at the same ranges his scattergun gets its optimal TTK you're delusional. Pyro has a tendency to be pocketed in pyro-heavy strategies, you're not bullet-chipping that.
It doesn't matter that soldier can technically two-shot pyro because the liklihood that the pyro doesn't right click both before you fire your first rocket, after you fire your first rocket midflight, and during the second rocket's flight is nonexistent. There is a short delay before he can start firing again after an airblast but there is no delay between firing his primary fire and then airblast at all. Pyro also doesn't have to run the jetpack to be playing at his best where soldier usually has to run boats, so pyro usually actually gets a secondary weapon. Pyro inherently has an extremely unfair advantage against soldier that is not present in any other generalist vs generalist matchup.
So no, you really can not do anything to dislodge a pyro from a control point without going out of your way to allocate more resources than a generalist deserves to get rid of him. Saying just shoot at him with bullet classes from a distance means either snipe him or dedicate multiple classes to targeting him at once. Sniper is the be all end all of counters and there's clearly something wrong with a generalist that takes multiple others to kill.
Ever played 4v4? Usual team composition is pyro, medic, demoman, scout. Pyro is pocket. Powerjacks to control point. Sits his fat ass on it and is unchallengeable by anything other than sniper flex. Soldier is too weak to be played normally in this format. You don't see pyro as much in 6v6 because double scout exists. If scout was limited to one per team, pyro would be played every single game. You don't notice pyro's strength in highlander because only a class as strong as sniper really stands out in such a huge, chaotic mode. 7v7 and 4v4 are the only formats capable of demonstrating how strong pyro is.
Pyro only has a high skill ceiling if you're going out of your way to practice gimmicks that aren't actually required to optimize your pyro effectiveness. Soldier has a much higher skill ceiling AND all of soldier's skills to learn are necessary to compete. You don't have to know how to scorch sync off a player to do good with pyro. You don't need to even aim your primary to play pyro. Jungle Inferno contracts proved players with less than ten hours can reflect consistently. You need to know how to rocket jump at increasing levels of mastery the higher level you play in. You need to consistently hit accurate rockets to optimize your rockets that get destroyed by both range and splash falloff.
Pyro hard counters -you know what- not even a counter. Pyro hard WALLS another generalist and doing so takes extremely little mastery of the class. Pyro's DM in general is way too strong and 4v4 proves it. TF2 is not primarily strategy-based, TF2 in general has a healthy mix of strategy and raw Quakelike DM. Pyro takes the concept of being rewarded in DM for hundreds, thousands of hours of practice and snaps it over his knee. You don't even need to have good strategy to play pyro either. Pyro is just the lowest possible amount of effort to reward in the game. And that sucks because I want pyro to be a great class that is actually on soldier's level of skill development, but every single change that has ever been made to pyro has gone in the opposite direction.

[Soggy Bread]

Originally posted by Trouser Snivy:

Originally posted by Uscari:

the longer message

My discussions formatting is pretty poor and honestly I am way too lazy (tired actually) to even bother separating all the quote sections to address everything individually, so I'm just gonna give an extremely ugly, disorganized response to some of the things you said.

Pyro doesn't incentivize ♥♥♥♥ further than "stay out of his radius," which is a huge problem in an objective-based game. If you don't think pyro can defeat scout at the same ranges his scattergun gets its optimal TTK you're delusional. Pyro has a tendency to be pocketed in pyro-heavy strategies, you're not bullet-chipping that.
It doesn't matter that soldier can technically two-shot pyro because the liklihood that the pyro doesn't right click both before you fire your first rocket, after you fire your first rocket midflight, and during the second rocket's flight is nonexistent. There is a short delay before he can start firing again after an airblast but there is no delay between firing his primary fire and then airblast at all. Pyro also doesn't have to run the jetpack to be playing at his best where soldier usually has to run boats, so pyro usually actually gets a secondary weapon. Pyro inherently has an extremely unfair advantage against soldier that is not present in any other generalist vs generalist matchup.
So no, you really can not do anything to dislodge a pyro from a control point without going out of your way to allocate more resources than a generalist deserves to get rid of him. Saying just shoot at him with bullet classes from a distance means either snipe him or dedicate multiple classes to targeting him at once. Sniper is the be all end all of counters and there's clearly something wrong with a generalist that takes multiple others to kill.
Ever played 4v4? Usual team composition is pyro, medic, demoman, scout. Pyro is pocket. Powerjacks to control point. Sits his fat ass on it and is unchallengeable by anything other than sniper flex. Soldier is too weak to be played normally in this format. You don't see pyro as much in 6v6 because double scout exists. If scout was limited to one per team, pyro would be played every single game. You don't notice pyro's strength in highlander because only a class as strong as sniper really stands out in such a huge, chaotic mode. 7v7 and 4v4 are the only formats capable of demonstrating how strong pyro is.
Pyro only has a high skill ceiling if you're going out of your way to practice gimmicks that aren't actually required to optimize your pyro effectiveness. Soldier has a much higher skill ceiling AND all of soldier's skills to learn are necessary to compete. You don't have to know how to scorch sync off a player to do good with pyro. You don't need to even aim your primary to play pyro. Jungle Inferno contracts proved players with less than ten hours can reflect consistently. You need to know how to rocket jump at increasing levels of mastery the higher level you play in. You need to consistently hit accurate rockets to optimize your rockets that get destroyed by both range and splash falloff.
Pyro hard counters -you know what- not even a counter. Pyro hard WALLS another generalist and doing so takes extremely little mastery of the class. Pyro's DM in general is way too strong and 4v4 proves it. TF2 is not primarily strategy-based, TF2 in general has a healthy mix of strategy and raw Quakelike DM. Pyro takes the concept of being rewarded in DM for hundreds, thousands of hours of practice and snaps it over his knee. You don't even need to have good strategy to play pyro either. Pyro is just the lowest possible amount of effort to reward in the game. And that sucks because I want pyro to be a great class that is actually on soldier's level of skill development, but every single change that has ever been made to pyro has gone in the opposite direction.

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ you deserve a medal.

[frackingfan6969]

Originally posted by Trouser Snivy:

Originally posted by Uscari:

the longer message

My discussions formatting is pretty poor and honestly I am way too lazy (tired actually) to even bother separating all the quote sections to address everything individually, so I'm just gonna give an extremely ugly, disorganized response to some of the things you said.

Pyro doesn't incentivize ♥♥♥♥ further than "stay out of his radius," which is a huge problem in an objective-based game. If you don't think pyro can defeat scout at the same ranges his scattergun gets its optimal TTK you're delusional. Pyro has a tendency to be pocketed in pyro-heavy strategies, you're not bullet-chipping that.
It doesn't matter that soldier can technically two-shot pyro because the liklihood that the pyro doesn't right click both before you fire your first rocket, after you fire your first rocket midflight, and during the second rocket's flight is nonexistent. There is a short delay before he can start firing again after an airblast but there is no delay between firing his primary fire and then airblast at all. Pyro also doesn't have to run the jetpack to be playing at his best where soldier usually has to run boats, so pyro usually actually gets a secondary weapon. Pyro inherently has an extremely unfair advantage against soldier that is not present in any other generalist vs generalist matchup.
So no, you really can not do anything to dislodge a pyro from a control point without going out of your way to allocate more resources than a generalist deserves to get rid of him. Saying just shoot at him with bullet classes from a distance means either snipe him or dedicate multiple classes to targeting him at once. Sniper is the be all end all of counters and there's clearly something wrong with a generalist that takes multiple others to kill.
Ever played 4v4? Usual team composition is pyro, medic, demoman, scout. Pyro is pocket. Powerjacks to control point. Sits his fat ass on it and is unchallengeable by anything other than sniper flex. Soldier is too weak to be played normally in this format. You don't see pyro as much in 6v6 because double scout exists. If scout was limited to one per team, pyro would be played every single game. You don't notice pyro's strength in highlander because only a class as strong as sniper really stands out in such a huge, chaotic mode. 7v7 and 4v4 are the only formats capable of demonstrating how strong pyro is.
Pyro only has a high skill ceiling if you're going out of your way to practice gimmicks that aren't actually required to optimize your pyro effectiveness. Soldier has a much higher skill ceiling AND all of soldier's skills to learn are necessary to compete. You don't have to know how to scorch sync off a player to do good with pyro. You don't need to even aim your primary to play pyro. Jungle Inferno contracts proved players with less than ten hours can reflect consistently. You need to know how to rocket jump at increasing levels of mastery the higher level you play in. You need to consistently hit accurate rockets to optimize your rockets that get destroyed by both range and splash falloff.
Pyro hard counters -you know what- not even a counter. Pyro hard WALLS another generalist and doing so takes extremely little mastery of the class. Pyro's DM in general is way too strong and 4v4 proves it. TF2 is not primarily strategy-based, TF2 in general has a healthy mix of strategy and raw Quakelike DM. Pyro takes the concept of being rewarded in DM for hundreds, thousands of hours of practice and snaps it over his knee. You don't even need to have good strategy to play pyro either. Pyro is just the lowest possible amount of effort to reward in the game. And that sucks because I want pyro to be a great class that is actually on soldier's level of skill development, but every single change that has ever been made to pyro has gone in the opposite direction.

a shorter message

[kazuma kiryu gaming]

Originally posted by Cheese:

1. jarate
2. air
3. heal
4. medic
5. dispenser
6. pyro is fair and balanced

7. Mad milk
8. Sandvich
9. Banana
10. Health pack
11. Resupply cabinet
12. soldier banner

[Emurinus]

Afterburn can wait until the rest of Pyro is fixed. In the meantime, scrap the Scorch Shot.

[xo]

Originally posted by Peter Griffin:

Originally posted by Cheese:

1. jarate
2. air
3. heal
4. medic
5. dispenser
6. pyro is fair and balanced

7. Mad milk
8. Sandvich
9. Banana
10. Health pack
11. Resupply cabinet
12. soldier banner

13. water
14. manmelter
15. Steak
16. chocolate
17. Sydney Sleeper
18. Spy-Cicle (self)

[nebunu nep]

Originally posted by Peach:

Originally posted by Peter Griffin:

7. Mad milk
8. Sandvich
9. Banana
10. Health pack
11. Resupply cabinet
12. soldier banner

13. water
14. manmelter
15. Steak
16. chocolate
17. Sydney Sleeper
18. Spy-Cicle (self)

bruh why am I 15th

[Rando the Crit Clown]

Originally posted by steak:

Originally posted by Peach:

13. water
14. manmelter
15. Steak
16. chocolate
17. Sydney Sleeper
18. Spy-Cicle (self)

bruh why am I 15th

Number 15 is the best number.

[Heatmaker]

Afterburn can easily be countered with so many weapons in the game. Even if you don't have those weapons equipped, there are still other things you can use to extinguish yourself