Are strength builds just totally outclassed by finesse?

[Quadsword]

Kinda feels that way. Running sword 'n' board just gimps your damage output too much, unless you run dagger & shield in which case you get guaranteed crits with backstabs.

Maybe there's a case to be made for two-handed weapons, but they'll be a huge target for magic users. Compare that to rogues who not only get better magic armor, but also have the mobility and utility of scoundrel skills to not only avoid getting CC'd by magic users, but also reach them and pick them off before they can cause too much trouble.

Just feels like strength builds get a raw deal in this game. Reminds me of Dark Souls 1 where strength builds always got the short end of the stick because of how equipment load worked.

[Red Phantom]

Two handed strength builds are probably the best damage dealers in the game. Their base damage is equal to that of backstab crits, and they can do it from any position.

Toward the end of the game, a basic two hand attack should be doing around 1.5k, and critting around 3k. One onslaught is often enough to one shot some bosses. Rogues can't really compare in terms of pure damage, but they do have a lot of other tricks that still make them worthwhile.

Sword and shield builds are just bad. There's no such thing as a tank in this game, so trying to build one just gives you a gimped character.

Edit: there's no shortage of mobility skills, either. Bull rush, blitz attack and pheonix dive should be all you ever need.

[AsianGirlLover]

You’re definitely much better off going dagger and shield over sword and shield, but two-handed strength builds are definitely the most powerful melee builds out there

[Godwoken Dovahkiin]

The only thing 1 handed weapons have over daggers is the chance to find one with cleave. Also Daggers crit damage seem to be capped at 150%, some one handed weapons have higher crit damage and innate critical chance.

[Mr. Huckleberry]

I have a winged-sword and shield main (my first play-through, about 10 hours in) and he did finally find a decent sword.. I am finding him very useful as a battlefield manager. He can fly, teleport enemies and friends and take a lot of damage. He great at moving threats away from my cannons and generating lots of attacks of opportunity. Specialization really doesn't seem optional, I decided to make my shield guy very hard to kill and very mobile. Seems to work so far. The focus on utility in this game is amazing, really. Sometimes its not as satisfying, but real combat almost always favors the more flexible force-I like that DOS2 expresses that.

[AsianGirlLover]

Originally posted by Gun-Toting Hippie:

I have a winged-sword and shield main (my first play-through, about 10 hours in) and he did finally find a decent sword.. I am finding him very useful as a battlefield manager. He can fly, teleport enemies and friends and take a lot of damage. He great at moving threats away from my cannons and generating lots of attacks of opportunity. Specialization really doesn't seem optional, I decided to make my shield guy very hard to kill and very mobile. Seems to work so far. The focus on utility in this game is amazing, really. Sometimes its not as satisfying, but real combat almost always favors the more flexible force-I like that DOS2 expresses that.

Exactly. It’s one of the most amazing combat experiences I’ve ever had in a game.

The versatility is truly beyond comparison.

[Red Phantom]

Originally posted by Gun-Toting Hippie:

I have a winged-sword and shield main (my first play-through, about 10 hours in) and he did finally find a decent sword.. I am finding him very useful as a battlefield manager. He can fly, teleport enemies and friends and take a lot of damage. He great at moving threats away from my cannons and generating lots of attacks of opportunity. Specialization really doesn't seem optional, I decided to make my shield guy very hard to kill and very mobile. Seems to work so far. The focus on utility in this game is amazing, really. Sometimes its not as satisfying, but real combat almost always favors the more flexible force-I like that DOS2 expresses that.

Mmm I'm not sure I agree completely. Yes, you can play basically any way and make it work, but there are clearly optimal ways to do things. Doing something like making a character a dedicated support, tank or healer will significantly reduce your damage dealing capabilities and cause fights to last longer. This game always favors damage above all else due to its mechanics. That's why playing with two lone wolf characters is easier than playing with a full, varied party.

There certainly is a wide variety of things that are possible, and almost all of it is viable if you have a good plan, but damage is just straight up better than utility in terms of what's mechanically optimal.

[OnlyOffensive]

yea two handed str weapons are nuts, they also gain crit multi from scoundrel. And there are some sick skills like ounslaught under enrage, oh yeah.

sword and shield is kinda useless, i dont know what it supposed to do, its not damage nor its "tanking", better make caster with shield and wand and enjoy same protection but be usefull.

Yea and warfare by itself has more mobility than scoundrel plus you can dig into polymorph or smth. Rogues are very good to lock one specific target, especially being glass cannon, proper warfare with necromancy for example and some hydro pyro for hybrid skills can just do what it wants.

[OnlyOffensive]

Originally posted by Gun-Toting Hippie:

I have a winged-sword and shield main (my first play-through, about 10 hours in) and he did finally find a decent sword.. I am finding him very useful as a battlefield manager. He can fly, teleport enemies and friends and take a lot of damage. He great at moving threats away from my cannons and generating lots of attacks of opportunity. Specialization really doesn't seem optional, I decided to make my shield guy very hard to kill and very mobile. Seems to work so far. The focus on utility in this game is amazing, really. Sometimes its not as satisfying, but real combat almost always favors the more flexible force-I like that DOS2 expresses that.

ok, he will just die last. Just to clarify, i have character with shield + wand, its caster with VERY HIGH defenses and some enemies still can kill her in one round, unlikely but possibly. While control indeed is very usefull due to game mechanic you first need to remove phys or magic armor. And sorry, but your tank with 4 ap per round ( even hasted ) wont do that much by himself.

[Chaoslink]

Yes. Finesse ALWAYS outclasses the strength based counterpart in an overall sense. Spears deal about 5% less damage than STR two handers, but the added range allows you to attack without being attacked back (root the enemy so they can't close that gap). While a 2H STR build might outclass a dual dagger or something like that, when comparing similar weapon setups like spear/2H sword or dagger/shield and 1H/shield, the finesse option is better every time. That doesn't mean STR doesn't have its place, but for optimal results you want finesse.

[OnlyOffensive]

range of spears is super minor thing which you might utilize couple times at best. I havent seen much spears compared to str 2H, they are super rare for me plus you get some ridiciolus str uniques all the time, like in mordus quest.

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by OnlyOffensive:

range of spears is super minor thing which you might utilize couple times at best. I havent seen much spears compared to str 2H, they are super rare for me plus you get some ridiciolus str uniques all the time, like in mordus quest.

Eh, you can make use of spear range in any fight with melee enemies, you just have to root them. Spears can be rare, but there’s vendors that will always stock a certain amount of them each restock. They’re definitely an item that benefits from the mod that lets you level up gear though.

[Lethan]

Range always wins over lack of range.

If playing vanilla, with just the item leveling mod ( for the sake of always being geared ); the FIN twohander vs the STR twohander will win hands down.

You can't onslaught if you can't hit the target, and they can poke you for days an extra measurement of range quite happily.

Outside of being geared though, FIN twohander is basically STR hardmode and the basic attack will always be reduced by the difference. Attached polymorph skills do less damage as the hardest hitting ones scale off STR and you lack carry capacity increases.

For stat increase value, endgame FIN armour is flat out better though. Just getting there.

[Krampus]

Originally posted by Quadsword:

Kinda feels that way. Running sword 'n' board just gimps your damage output too much, unless you run dagger & shield in which case you get guaranteed crits with backstabs.

Maybe there's a case to be made for two-handed weapons, but they'll be a huge target for magic users. Compare that to rogues who not only get better magic armor, but also have the mobility and utility of scoundrel skills to not only avoid getting CC'd by magic users, but also reach them and pick them off before they can cause too much trouble.

Just feels like strength builds get a raw deal in this game. Reminds me of Dark Souls 1 where strength builds always got the short end of the stick because of how equipment load worked.

Strengh builds in DS1 were just as deadly as any other build, if you knew how to work them.
Pretty much steam rolling the game all the way up to manus with a pure strengh build was not an issue whatsoever. Even manus himself went down fairly quickly despite his retarded armor value.
Same goes for this game. It's all about the build. If you know how to build your character, a solo lone wolf run is gonna be a breeze even with a pure physical 2h melee character.
In a party with someone else or even 3 other people it really becomes a walk in the park.

Tl:Dr Your issue is not knowing the game enough or simply not caring about it enough to invest the time required to actually understand it and get good at it.
Harsh advice i know but tough love pays, as i heard.

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by Krampus:

Originally posted by Quadsword:

Kinda feels that way. Running sword 'n' board just gimps your damage output too much, unless you run dagger & shield in which case you get guaranteed crits with backstabs.

Maybe there's a case to be made for two-handed weapons, but they'll be a huge target for magic users. Compare that to rogues who not only get better magic armor, but also have the mobility and utility of scoundrel skills to not only avoid getting CC'd by magic users, but also reach them and pick them off before they can cause too much trouble.

Just feels like strength builds get a raw deal in this game. Reminds me of Dark Souls 1 where strength builds always got the short end of the stick because of how equipment load worked.

Strengh builds in DS1 were just as deadly as any other build, if you knew how to work them.
Pretty much steam rolling the game all the way up to manus with a pure strengh build was not an issue whatsoever. Even manus himself went down fairly quickly despite his retarded armor value.
Same goes for this game. It's all about the build. If you know how to build your character, a solo lone wolf run is gonna be a breeze even with a pure physical 2h melee character.
In a party with someone else or even 3 other people it really becomes a walk in the park.

Tl:Dr Your issue is not knowing the game enough or simply not caring about it enough to invest the time required to actually understand it and get good at it.
Harsh advice i know but tough love pays, as i heard.

You need to realize though, that no one here is saying strength builds can’t perform or be used effectively. We’re just looking at how they compare with their finesse counterparts and the reality of that is that whatever benefits strength gets is outweighed pretty heavily by the benefits of a finesse build. Even if that difference is just a 2% overall value in favor of finesse, finesse is still the overall better performer.

[Chaoslink]

Another thing to note about finesse builds vs strength builds, is that your standard archer really isn’t built too differently than a dagger or spear user. You still have mostly Warfare and even melee users can take a little huntsman for first aid and tactical retreat. This means that any finesse melee can spend just 1 AP to switch to a bow or crossbow at any time and become a ranged damage on the spot. Spear users only need 1 AP to switch back as well, making them very versatile (consumable arrows for magic damage for instance) whereas strength builds can’t do that as easily since their ranged damage wouldn’t have all that finesse to scale.