IZH 43

[YVAN EHT NIOJ]

Saw that gun in weapons trailer. Actually this gun came to world in 1986, but basically its IZH 58 from 1958. Does devs knows about it or it is some different IZH 43?

[Gorgonite]

Originally posted by =(e)= Lemonater47:

Originally posted by Retrova:

http://world-war-2.wikia.com/wiki/IZH-43

I have a lot of doubts about this page. Not to mention that wikia if you look at other pages is pretty inaccurate.

The company IZH did start in 1942. But they were making TT-33s mostly along with AT weapons.

IZH's first shotgun was made in 1949. Which was a double barrel however the barrels were on top of each other rather than side by side.

Not to mention why would the soviet military want a shotgun? They wouldn't.

On that website it says 'it was used by the NKVD and home guard formations' not by the soviet military. If I'm not mistaken the home guard would have been formed by peasant volunteers and the website says the IZH-43 'was the most common hunting rifle back then'.
Peasants using their hunting shotguns in an irregular militia makes sense to me.

Not sure about them being used by the NKVD. I suppose it would be an intimidating weapon which fits that line of work.

I'm not entirely sure about the credibility of this information either but it doesn't seem too far fetched.

[YVAN EHT NIOJ]

IZHMASH stop producing hunting guns in 1938 as russian wiki says https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Калашников_(концерн) . Also wiki says IZHMASH produce IZH-5 since 1926 and IZH-BK, IZH-B-36, IZH-BK-36 in middle 30-s. And only after WWII IZSHMASH start produce hunting guns again TOZ-32, IzhB-44. But IZHMASH focus on rifled guns later, when IZHMECH(IZHMASH 1942 daughter) focus on smooth barrel hunting rifles. You can read about it in wiki in WWII part https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalashnikov_Concern I guess theres no IZH-43 during WWII. And also why develope two-barrel shotgun in 1943 when front need tanks?

[=(e)= Lemonater47]

Originally posted by Retrova:

Originally posted by =(e)= Lemonater47:

I have a lot of doubts about this page. Not to mention that wikia if you look at other pages is pretty inaccurate.

The company IZH did start in 1942. But they were making TT-33s mostly along with AT weapons.

IZH's first shotgun was made in 1949. Which was a double barrel however the barrels were on top of each other rather than side by side.

Not to mention why would the soviet military want a shotgun? They wouldn't.

On that website it says 'it was used by the NKVD and home guard formations' not by the soviet military. If I'm not mistaken the home guard would have been formed by peasant volunteers and the website says the IZH-43 'was the most common hunting rifle back then'.
Peasants using their hunting shotguns in an irregular militia makes sense to me.

Not sure about them being used by the NKVD. I suppose it would be an intimidating weapon which fits that line of work.

I'm not entirely sure about the credibility of this information either but it doesn't seem too far fetched.

It's a wiki page. Where's it's sources lol. It ain't got none. Wiki pages are supposed to have a list of sources and references.

It then said its made by Baikal. Which is literally just the name IZH uses for its exports. Which it didn't start using until the late 50s to 60s.

IZH themselves have their own history page of what they did. And they weren't making shotguns during the war. Or even directely after. Their first shotgun was in 1949 and was a completely different design.

What's happened here is the guy who made that wiki page has also got tripped up by the name IZH-43. And has decided to make a wiki page of it. I wouldn't say he deliberately made up information about it but I think he's misread something, then made a lot of assumptions.

[=(e)= Lemonater47]

Originally posted by YVAN EHT NIOJ:

IZHMASH stop producing hunting guns in 1938 as russian wiki says https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Калашников_(концерн) . Also wiki says IZHMASH produce IZH-5 since 1926 and IZH-BK, IZH-B-36, IZH-BK-36 in middle 30-s. And only after WWII IZSHMASH start produce hunting guns again TOZ-32, IzhB-44. But IZHMASH focus on rifled guns later, when IZHMECH(IZHMASH 1942 daughter) focus on smooth barrel hunting rifles. You can read about it in wiki in WWII part https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalashnikov_Concern I guess theres no IZH-43 during WWII. And also why develope two-barrel shotgun in 1943 when front need tanks?

You haven't quite got the right company. It looks like IZHMASH but it's actually Izhevsk Mechanical Plant. Kalishnikov Concern is the name of both of them merged together.

But yes prior to the Merger they both used the IZH prefix. Even in russian letters. Just to be extra confusing.

[YVAN EHT NIOJ]

Originally posted by =(e)= Lemonater47:

Originally posted by YVAN EHT NIOJ:

IZHMASH stop producing hunting guns in 1938 as russian wiki says https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Калашников_(концерн) . Also wiki says IZHMASH produce IZH-5 since 1926 and IZH-BK, IZH-B-36, IZH-BK-36 in middle 30-s. And only after WWII IZSHMASH start produce hunting guns again TOZ-32, IzhB-44. But IZHMASH focus on rifled guns later, when IZHMECH(IZHMASH 1942 daughter) focus on smooth barrel hunting rifles. You can read about it in wiki in WWII part https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalashnikov_Concern I guess theres no IZH-43 during WWII. And also why develope two-barrel shotgun in 1943 when front need tanks?

You haven't quite got the right company. It looks like IZHMASH but it's actually Izhevsk Mechanical Plant. Kalishnikov Concern is the name of both of them merged together.

But yes prior to the Merger they both used the IZH prefix. Even in russian letters. Just to be extra confusing.

They merge after 2000-s. "On July 20, 1942 Plant № 622 (future Izhevsk Mechanical Plant) was segregated from Plant № 74. Part of the equipment was transferred from Izhevsk Engineering works, a part was obtained at evacuated Tula and Podolsk mechanical plants. During the war, Plant № 622 produced Degtyarev-Simonov antitank guns, TT pistols, Nagant revolvers, flare guns, ignition case primers." Plant № 74 its IZHMASH. Also IZHMASH stop using IZH name in names too when start produce rifled hunting guns. So its IZHMECH using IZH after they dividing till switch to MP prefix. Seems IZHMASH its an important part of story.

[Gorgonite]

Originally posted by =(e)= Lemonater47:

IZH themselves have their own history page of what they did. And they weren't making shotguns during the war. Or even directely after. Their first shotgun was in 1949 and was a completely different design.

Can you post the link for this page? I'm having trouble finding it.

On the Kalashnikov Concern Wikipedia page I can't find anything about shotguns in the World War II or Post-World War II sections.

[Grif]

I got it! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_weapons_of_the_Cambodian_Civil_War The IZH-43 was used during the cambodian civil war the same years virtually as the vietnam war.

[Gorgonite]

Originally posted by =(e)= Lemonater47:

It's a wiki page. Where's it's sources lol. It ain't got none. Wiki pages are supposed to have a list of sources and references.

Originally posted by =(e)= Lemonater47:

What's happened here is the guy who made that wiki page has also got tripped up by the name IZH-43. And has decided to make a wiki page of it. I wouldn't say he deliberately made up information about it but I think he's misread something, then made a lot of assumptions.

You're probably right about this article. It is likely unfinished - last updated March 26th this year so maybe someone still intends to work on it.

[=(e)= Lemonater47]

The IZH-58 is almost identical to the IZH-43. Remember that people. The IZH-58 was made before the vietnam war started so that's the one that was in vietnam and surrounding area's.

[Gorgonite]

Originally posted by IRIxGrif:

I got it! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_weapons_of_the_Cambodian_Civil_War The IZH-43 was used during the cambodian civil war the same years virtually as the vietnam war.

Thats a good find. If it was being used in Cambodia at the same time as the Vietnam war surely some of them made their way into Vietnam.

[Gorgonite]

Also the IZH-43 was in the games Vietcong and Vietcong 2. So the developers of those games made the "mistake" too?

[YVAN EHT NIOJ]

Originally posted by Retrova:

Also the IZH-43 was in the games Vietcong and Vietcong 2. So the developers of those games made the "mistake" too?

You can ask original gun manufacturer here http://www.imzcorp.com/en/info/contacts.html . Im kinda lazy to ask them.

[Chaunsey]

to be honest its always been a bit odd for none americans to use shotguns in military shooters.

they're relatively common now due to nato and heavy US military doctrine influence, but historically shotguns in war has been a very US specific tactic.

in europe the shotgun was a weapon of last resort, usually homeguards and such, and was even at one time viewed as a barbaric weapon similar to using expanding ammunition.

thats why you often see simple hunting style shotguns for a lot of games when playing non-american forces, i always felt this was simply a way to keep symetric equipment to both sides, when really only the US ever had widespread use of shotguns.

[Grif]

Originally posted by Chaunsey:

to be honest its always been a bit odd for none americans to use shotguns in military shooters.

they're relatively common now due to nato and heavy US military doctrine influence, but historically shotguns in war has been a very US specific tactic.

in europe the shotgun was a weapon of last resort, usually homeguards and such, and was even at one time viewed as a barbaric weapon similar to using expanding ammunition.

thats why you often see simple hunting style shotguns for a lot of games when playing non-american forces, i always felt this was simply a way to keep symetric equipment to both sides, when really only the US ever had widespread use of shotguns.

Well on the wikipedia article for the war it doesn't list the NVA as using any shotguns, Than again that may not matter for as far as i know the NVA used any weapon they could get thier hands on.

[North_Dumpling]

Originally posted by Retrova:

Also the IZH-43 was in the games Vietcong and Vietcong 2. So the developers of those games made the "mistake" too?

Honestly saying , Jackett told us that they were basing off Vietcong 2 lol. They dont do their research they way they should.