Supreme Commander 2's Big Mistake (1.25 vs 1.26)

[Bambi]

Since I already wrote it up for the GOG forums, I figured I'd crosspost it to here:

In the last days of Gas Powered Games, they took a special effort to release one last patch to address some of the criticisms that the community had with it. A wonderful gesture, but ultimately destructive to the game.

One of the big changes in Supcom 2 was the change to an up-front payment system instead of the gradual resource drain of TA and SC1. This was done to make it easier to understand for console players. Ironic, given that the gradual drain was originally put in Total Annihilation to make it easier to manage compared to Command & Conquer. You see, when you pay all the resources all at once, queuing up units or buildings means you have less resources to spend on other things until the queue is empty. Starcraft pros always recommend not queuing things up for that reason and that's why they spend a lot of time using hotkeys to select their production buildings and building just one unit at a time. This is obviously not "easier" as such. But with a gradual drain, it's easier to overspend and run into bottlenecks and have everything build in slow-motion, or to underspend and waste resources. So there's pros and cons to each system.

At first you couldn't even queue up buildings at all if you did not have enough resources in the bank, exacerbating the problem described above. A later patch only subtracted the cost of the building when that point in the build queue was reached, so you could queue them up ahead of time again.

Compared to the first game, you can only assist with a few builders at a time, and the assist is generally less powerful, but since the resources are already spent, it is also free to assist. You could also only get a single, fixed amount of resources from a given mass extractor, and no more than that. Overall this was seen as a big downgrade to the complexity and flexibility of the first game. The scale of the game is also smaller, with smaller maps, smaller and cheaper super units and smaller unit caps. Overall, you can probably see where the accusations of consolitis came from.

So to try and compensate for this, the final patch made two major changes to the game. First, all ordinary units were shrunk down a bit, making them harder to see, but without actually making the maps any bigger. Second, it made mass extractors gain veterancy over time, giving you more resources the longer you hold onto them.

The second change breaks the game in two massive ways. First of all, the game was carefully balanced so that with the mass points you have available at the start, you had just about enough resources to get started. The new extractors start off giving less resources than normal, meaning you no longer have enough resources. This slows the early game to a crawl as you inevitably stall, waiting for resources. But as they level up over time, they start giving more resources than usual. So many more in fact, that without any of the major resource sinks that the original game had, you have no way to ever spend them. It is possible to fill up every square of the map with factories and still reach 9999999999 mass. In the late game, the upgraded extractors are almost the same as having an infinite money cheat (which already is in the game as a game setting). This totally breaks whatever was left of the gameplay.

So to recap, units are harder to see for no good reason. The early game is slowed down terribly, and the late game is totally destroyed. The patch was a nice gesture, but ultimately destructive to the game. I don't know of any way to roll back the change except to buy it at Blackbeard's, if you catch my drift.

[StoneCold]

Well, you can always downgrade to 1.25 by following the steps outlined here (basically for any game really):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Steam/comments/611h5e/guide_how_to_download_older_versions_of_a_game_on/

Just remember to disable auto updates as Steam *might* want to download the newest version upon launch :D

[Fulano]

Wait, so you're complaining about a patch that came out 8 years ago? Am I understanding this right?

[Ceejay]

The mass extractors do not keep increasing? they stop at level 5 and 2.4 mass per second.

The original did not have a fixed amount as such you know in the original game you could upgrade them from 1 all the way to 18 in supcom 1 or 1 to 27 mass per second in Fa...so that is even worse really. So whats your point?

The Engineers were made to do that on purpose so you did not have people having 50 engineers round a factory pumping out units stupidly fast. They had good reasons for the changes, even if you do not agree with them.

As above though why are you complaining about an ancient patch? I could understand if it just came out, but it has not. They are also not game breaking, as everyone has to deal with them, its still a very balanced game.

I mean what is the point of this? regular players already know all this, new players wont care as for them it has always played like this, there is no way to downgrade if you want to keep multiplayer so again most players are going to play the game as have got used to it.

Essentially this just sound like someone who simply does not like the fact this game plays differently to the first. Well is a sequel they tried to mix it up so it does not become stale.

I personally believe they did a good job as you can play 1 after another and not feel too bored with the gameplay.

[Bambi]

@Ceejay This post is about Supreme Commander 2. Please re-read everything.

[Ceejay]

Originally posted by Bambi:

@Ceejay This post is about Supreme Commander 2. Please re-read everything.

I know its about supreme Commander 2, maybe your mis-reading things. You are comparing some of your points to the original and so am I. At what point am I not talking about the 2nd?

[JoeyR]

From someone coming from Total Annihilation and original Supreme Commander, I was a little uneasy about the changes they made. However after playing some matches with a good buddy of mine last night, and really getting used to the "new"; Honestly I've really enjoyed the change myself. It's a lot less micro managing units and structures which to me is a lot more fun. Maps are smaller for sure, but with how little time I have to play games these day's, it's okay by me. Keeps you on your toe's to some extent. I can see for sure as-well, with the changes made since SupCom-1, it will be a lot easier for many of those who have never played an RTS before, and want to get into one, to pickup and understand. The first few Skirmish games I played, honestly I had no clue wth was going on, and why I wasn't able to advance to T2 or T3 and was getting wrecked by easy Ai. Then I was informed of the new leveling system. Finding that out, and going into my next Skirmish game, I got back into the normal TA/SupCom rhythm, and starting really enjoying the game again.

It feels like more or less the same game, just a different way of going about how you do them., and again far less micro managing(yuck). But if you are a big TA/SupCom fan and aren't open minded to change, then I can totally understand where you're coming from(and I think it's understandable). But It does seem the developers are trying to draw in a new crowd of gamers, and you cannot blame them for it. Thankfully you can always just play the 1st SupCom if you don't like where this one is headed(or has arrived).

[Bambi]

Please re-read everything. The topic is not Supcom2 vs Supcom1. The topic is Supcom2 1.25 vs Supcom2 1.26

[Ceejay]

Originally posted by Bambi:

Please re-read everything. The topic is not Supcom2 vs Supcom1. The topic is Supcom2 1.25 vs Supcom2 1.26

Eh? you are the one who brought the first game into it.

One of the big changes in Supcom 2 was the change to an up-front payment system instead of the gradual resource drain of TA and SC1. T

Compared to the first game, you can only assist with a few builders at a time, and the assist is generally less powerful, but since the resources are already spent, it is also free to assist. You could also only get a single, fixed amount of resources from a given mass extractor, and no more than that. Overall this was seen as a big downgrade to the complexity and flexibility of the first game. The scale of the game is also smaller, with smaller maps, smaller and cheaper super units and smaller unit caps. Overall, you can probably see where the accusations of consolitis came from.

There you go. You are comparing the first and 2nd games. Again you are the one that needs to re-read what had been put, you clearly have no idea what you even wrote yourself.

So to try and compensate for this, the final patch made two major changes to the game. First, all ordinary units were shrunk down a bit, making them harder to see, but without actually making the maps any bigger. Second, it made mass extractors gain veterancy over time, giving you more resources the longer you hold onto them.

The second change breaks the game in two massive ways. First of all, the game was carefully balanced so that with the mass points you have available at the start, you had just about enough resources to get started. The new extractors start off giving less resources than normal, meaning you no longer have enough resources. This slows the early game to a crawl as you inevitably stall, waiting for resources. But as they level up over time, they start giving more resources than usual. So many more in fact, that without any of the major resource sinks that the original game had, you have no way to ever spend them. It is possible to fill up every square of the map with factories and still reach 9999999999 mass. In the late game, the upgraded extractors are almost the same as having an infinite money cheat (which already is in the game as a game setting). This totally breaks whatever was left of the gameplay.

We are going to have conflicting views here. You still start off with enough resources to get started, it is also hardly a crawl if you are doing it properly. (perhaps watch some multiplayer matches on youtube, you will see there is no slow start as such).

As for your point on resources. This makes no sense. Even if the mass extractors only gave out a set amount, you would still reach 9999999999 mass at some point given enough time. Also they do not increase indefinatly, they stop at 2.4 Mass per second. Plus if you are reaching 9999999999 you are clearly not playing the game right.

In any case. How does this break the game? it is like simply playing on a map where you have twice the mass extracters? That is all, its not game breaking at all. Its like instead of capturing 4 mass points, you have 8 mass points.....essentially you are getting twice the mass, its hardly game breaking, it just mean you have twice as much to spend, but so does everyone else.

So to recap, units are harder to see for no good reason. The early game is slowed down terribly, and the late game is totally destroyed. The patch was a nice gesture, but ultimately destructive to the game. I don't know of any way to roll back the change except to buy it at Blackbeard's, if you catch my drift.

So to recap, units are smaller so you can control more of them easier and increase the sense of scale. The early game is not really slowed down, more that the late game can have more action. The patch was indeed a nice gesture, but ultimately some people will like it some will not, though given the amount of people still playing it, overall more people seem to like it than dislike it.


Now we might have conflicting opinions on what they did and why they did it, but again, I still see no reason why are you bothering to bring all this up in 2020. The patch came out in 2014. You are 6 years late to the party.

[Bambi]

I am simply giving background on why the patch was created. Do you not understand that?

It is not possible to reach 999999999 mass with the old extractors since the balance of the game is such that an army is more expensive than what you can get out of your side of the map. That way you have to choose what to build, adding strategy to the game. If you want infinite money, then there is already such a cheat in the game. If you don't want infinite money, then you are ♥♥♥♥ out of luck. Do you not understand that? How hard to understand is that? Why argue against facts?

And it is simply undeniable that the early game is slowed down as well. Before, the game was balanced so that if you build your four extractors, a few generators and a factory, you have enough to recoup that mass and start building units right away. With the new resource ouputs, you do not even have enough to do that. So you simply must sit around and wait, doing nothing, until you can build even your starting base with the bare essentials. The game was not balanced for this. This is undeniable. This is facts. Do you not understand that? Why argue against it?

The game was just re-released, and most people simply will not be aware of this change after all this time, and maybe assume that's how the game is supposed to be. But it is not. I simply explained that for the benefit of anyone curious. But ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ like you who do not even understand simple things feel the need to come in here and argue against simple facts. Why? What do you gain from denying reality and misunderstanding simple things?

[Ceejay]

Originally posted by Bambi:

I am simply giving background on why the patch was created. Do you not understand that?

Eh? All I have done is respond to what you have posted, nothing else. You are the one who had a go at me for mentioning comparing it to the first game, when you did it first. As i pointed out. There is no need to get personal. We are simply debating.

It is not possible to reach 999999999 mass with the old extractors since the balance of the game is such that an army is more expensive than what you can get out of your side of the map. That way you have to choose what to build, adding strategy to the game. If you want infinite money, then there is already such a cheat in the game. If you don't want infinite money, then you are ♥♥♥♥ out of luck. Do you not understand that? How hard to understand is that? Why argue against facts?

That is not a fact. If you do not spend the money you can hit the same limit. All the veterancy does is give you double the mass income. that is it. That is all it does. its hardly game breaking. so you will hit the limit twice as fast, but you can still hit the limit. I do not care about infinite money, why are you bring up stuff Ive not said? Also why are you evening mentioning cheats? No one cares about cheaters.

And it is simply undeniable that the early game is slowed down as well. Before, the game was balanced so that if you build your four extractors, a few generators and a factory, you have enough to recoup that mass and start building units right away. With the new resource ouputs, you do not even have enough to do that. So you simply must sit around and wait, doing nothing, until you can build even your starting base with the bare essentials. The game was not balanced for this. This is undeniable. This is facts. Do you not understand that? Why argue against it?

Because that is purely down to your opinion and playing style. For instance I will quote someone else who posted about the patch at the time.

Originally posted by Apheirox:

]This small change is a massive improvement that greatly enhances the game. Extractors will now output 0.6 mass all the way up to 2.4 after 18 minutes, and the cost of extractors themselves has been slashed in half, both in terms of energy and mass cost. Why is this so good? Because:

1) It greatly speeds up the early game due to cutting the cost of extractors in half. Extractors are now much easier to get built, and while they provide only half their original value, veterancy at first comes very quickly. Overall, there will be more mass than before meaning we can leave the uninteresting early phase quicker.

2) Despite what the SC1 fans/SC2 haters will likely say, this model is a huge improvement over the model used in SC1. Basically, SC2 now has mass extractor tiers 1-3 just like SC1, but without the tedious hassle of having to micromanage them (being automated). Veterancy is an elegant solution to the tier system that leaves us free to focus on the battle rather than resource management while still having all the benefits of the tier system.

3) Most importantly: It's the firm return of map control as a game concept! It is now much more feasible to expand even into contested territory, because extractors are again expendable. Raiding is now back with a vengeance, and sneak attacks on 'tier 3' enemy extractors becomes a priority! The importance of controlling the map has greatly increased, eliminating one of the game's previously biggest issues.

4) Last, but certainly not least, it is an indirect huge nerf to mass convertors. Finally! Not only is the base extractor now twice as powerful, it also receives twice the boost from the mass extraction rates in the research tree - a UEF 18 minute extractor now outputs an impressive 3.2 mass per second, making it more difficult for convertors to compete. Essentially, even if mass conversion remains powerful, mass extractors are now twice the strength they were before in comparison which means it is much more possible to compete with a mass convertor player even if you're not using it. They'll need many more convertors before their advantage really kicks in, which gives you more time to defeat them with your superior unit upgrades that you didn't invest into conversion tech. The days of giant convertor farms are now at and end - or, at least, greatly diminished in value.

Now I am not saying they are right or wrong, its again down to opinions, you have yours we have ours.

The game was just re-released, and most people simply will not be aware of this change after all this time

Yes but then why would they care as the game has the patch already in it, it has done for 6 years. People are only going to care how it plays now, not 6 years ago as they wont be playing that version, they are playing this version.

that's how the game is supposed to be. But it is not. I simply explained that for the benefit of anyone curious. But ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s like you who do not even understand simple things feel the need to come in here and argue against simple facts. Why? What do you gain from denying reality and misunderstanding simple things?

Also you keep saying this is not how the game is supposed to be? How so? How is that not how the game is supposed to be, the devs did that, you know the people who made the game. Infact the game has had the latest patch now for much longer than it has not had the patch, so if anything your pointing out, how the game should not be played.

Also you could argue that the 1.25 version was also not how the game should be played either. Infact. the 1.20 patch changed a ton of stuff, far more than the 1.26 patch did. So even there your point falls flat, as technically going by your logic the 1.25 patch is also not how the game should be played either. Even earlier patches like 1.11 changed quite a bit.

i am not arguing against simple facts, i am also not the one getting personal or attacking anyone.

I do not have an issue with you pointing out how the game has changed, that is great. In fact here. Here are all the patches and the notes, so people can see how the game has evolved.

https://supcom2.fandom.com/wiki/Game_Updates

What I have a problem with is you stating your opinions as facts, when they are not. You can say in your opinion you prefer the way the game played with the 1.25 patch, that is fine. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. It does not make it a fact. lots of us prefer the 1.26 patch. It does not make it a fact 1.26 is better either.

[supernet2]

Yeah you forgot to mention in Supreme Commander 2, they also screwed us GOG owners, by removing multiplayer even basic LAN functionality with out significant hacking it in using a build of the steam version (just for enabling LAN). Bit of a joke.

[Ceejay]

Originally posted by supernet2:

Yeah you forgot to mention in Supreme Commander 2, they also screwed us GOG owners, by removing multiplayer even basic LAN functionality with out significant hacking it in using a build of the steam version (just for enabling LAN). Bit of a joke.

Yeah that is rather bizarre given most people play this for multiplayer (do not get me wrong I have hundreds of single player/skirmish hours in it too). Though i also read that the serial number works on steam, so there is always that :).

[StoneCold]

Originally posted by supernet2:

Yeah you forgot to mention in Supreme Commander 2, they also screwed us GOG owners, by removing multiplayer even basic LAN functionality with out significant hacking it in using a build of the steam version (just for enabling LAN). Bit of a joke.

Well, I messed around with the GOG and Steam versions. If you copy over the two UI files of the Steam version to the GOG one, it "unlocks" the multiplayer menu for the GOG version. Sadly, you can create a game, but it gets stuck at "Connecting" and never goes further to create a lobby.

I believe they deactivated the flags in the GOG exe that establishes the "LAN" / "connected" state , allowing the game to create an mp lobby somehow. Using the Steam executable in conjunction doesn't work either. The GOG copy does boot with the Steam exe and steam_api.dll file, however, the same happens when trying to create an mp match.

The GOG version's included "Common.dll" file probably holds more answers here as well, but sadly I'm no HEX / reverse engineer. If I had more time, I'll probably dig some more, but perhaps they intend on adding mp support for all the SC games via GOG Galaxy some time in the future.

Anyhow, I'm glad I have the games on Steam instead, with no features removed :)

[supernet2]

i have it on both, bought in error on gog thinking oh, mp's available devs aren't gonna screw the consumer but i was mistaken.

Edit: Found a solution, just modify the steam .exe after decompiling it, remove the steam hooks and then take that code, decompile the .exe for the gog build and add in the additional code, recompile that code you pulled from the steam one. Problem solved. Shame us consumers need to figure this out. You'd think the devs wouldn't screw us consumers but again, i was wrong in believing that

[StoneCold]

Originally posted by supernet2:

i have it on both, bought in error on gog thinking oh, mp's available devs aren't gonna screw the consumer but i was mistaken.

Edit: Found a solution, just modify the steam .exe after decompiling it, remove the steam hooks and then take that code, decompile the .exe for the gog build and add in the additional code, recompile that code you pulled from the steam one. Problem solved. Shame us consumers need to figure this out. You'd think the devs would screw us consumers but again, i was wrong in believing that

Nice, could you perhaps upload the modified exe, if you don't mind? :)