Some Germans worried about Paradox design choices

[N*rd]

They believe Paradox crossed a line by glorifying figures like Heinrich Himmler, one of the major leaders involved in driving the Holocaust forward. They even added a laurel wreath to his portrait.

Additionally, the depiction of National Socialist party members like Hitler, who was previously in the shadows and not visible, is problematic. According to German law, specifically paragraph 86a, such depictions are prohibited.



Link to Source (use subtitles)


Edit:
Some of you accuse me that the cites above are my opinion.
I am unsure how one would get to that conclusion.
That is not the case, all I want is a discussion about the topic, if PDX has crossed a line or not.

[Autumn]

He's right. Paradox jumps at the bit to sell Wehraboo fantasies. He's not right that they just crossed a line, they did that ages ago, but like damn they really just sold a whole DLC of literally just pure fascist larp. It's not even a good DLC they're literally selling the same Germany content a second time with slightly more filler.

[Sir. Stein]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Toast:

He's right. Paradox jumps at the bit to sell Wehraboo fantasies. He's not right that they just crossed a line, they did that ages ago, but like damn they really just sold a whole DLC of literally just pure fascist larp. It's not even a good DLC they're literally selling the same Germany content a second time with slightly more filler.

It's not anywhere near to the point of "fascist larp". I stated in my review they have multiple things wrong regarding the economic policies of the Reich.

[Jebediah Fagovic]

No we should not and we are not.

[Helium God]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von N*rd:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Helium God:

No, Himmler is not a "baby" compared to Stalin or Mao. He's just as bad. And in HOI4, unlike Stalin, whose presence is largely an impediment to the Soviets until fairly far down the tree, the new German tree's descriptions of Himmler are fairly glowing and his various bonuses seem to indicate that the game takes him at his own propaganda. That is what the video creator was discussing in a perfectly reasonable fashion. There's a distinction between the way that most Communists and Fascists are handled in the game versus the "LARP-lite" nature of the "Inner Circle" mechanic, where a group of hardened war criminals are presented in a ridiculously good light (Todt and Speer, who at least were competent - perhaps - but Goering, Himmler and Bormann?!?! C'mon)

I think it’s generally inappropriate to compare war criminal rulers/ronquerors and argue that one was less evil than another.
It’s also difficult to draw a clear line between what constitutes glorification and what does not.

As we can see here, opinions range widely—from outright rage when discussing the topic, to ignorance (“I don’t care”), to more nuanced perspectives that range from “this went too far” to “this falls within the bounds of artistic freedom.”

It’s genuinely challenging to determine what the true middle ground is in this discussion.

edit to below:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Sri:

Thanks for altering the headline.

Yeah, I didn’t realize that I unintentionally formulated it too sensationally—I wanted to create a neutral discussion about the topic.

I agree that it is inappropriate to compare war criminals - hence my disagreement with the idea that Himmler is a "baby" compared to Mao or Stalin, which is an assertion that trivializes his manifestly horrifying deeds. This is indeed a challenging question, but people simply dismissing the reasoned, reasonably-stated video of one individual out of hand is fairly ridiculous.

[Helium God]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von DerRitter:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Helium God:

As far as I can tell, this is a single German and he isn't "mad," he is expressing legitimate concerns from the perspective of a German citizen who actually knows the past. It isn't necessary to agree with him to acknowledge these basic facts.

They are not legitimate at all

Oh - Du hast gesprochen und jetzt is *endlich* alles klar. LOL whatever.

[N*rd]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Helium God:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von N*rd:

I think it’s generally inappropriate to compare war criminal rulers/ronquerors and argue that one was less evil than another.
It’s also difficult to draw a clear line between what constitutes glorification and what does not.

As we can see here, opinions range widely—from outright rage when discussing the topic, to ignorance (“I don’t care”), to more nuanced perspectives that range from “this went too far” to “this falls within the bounds of artistic freedom.”

It’s genuinely challenging to determine what the true middle ground is in this discussion.

I agree that it is inappropriate to compare war criminals - hence my disagreement with the idea that Himmler is a "baby" compared to Mao or Stalin, which is an assertion that trivializes his manifestly horrifying deeds. This is indeed a challenging question, but people simply dismissing the reasoned, reasonably-stated video of one individual out of hand is fairly ridiculous.

That’s something we all need to be aware of.
I don’t even think the video from that YouTuber, expressing his concerns about the direction of the game, is invalid. It’s an important aspect that deserves consideration.

Understanding the perspective of this German community doesn’t mean you’re a leftist or liberal.
I think it’s okay to include such elements, and I could play without even noticing that. I wouldn't care that much tbh.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von sorry07:

How much of a liberal do you have to be a sissy to get emotional pain from a picture in a game? I feel sorry for you, in all the textbooks, on YouTube, on Google, in the photo. ♥♥♥♥ leaders have full-fledged photos everywhere, if you don't like something, just don't play, no need to impose your ♥♥♥♥♥

That’s a very new experience for me—being called a leftist.
I’m responding to you on behalf of all the others who accuse me of the same.

The original post isn’t my opinion; I was simply sharing information about a video that was posted on YouTube.
How does that make me aligned with their opinion?

It’s so disappointing that these days, everyone is instantly categorized as either left or right, without the ability to simply talk.
I wish we (as a community) could have discussions like we used to in the Steam Community about 10 years ago…

[Helium God]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von N*rd:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Helium God:

I agree that it is inappropriate to compare war criminals - hence my disagreement with the idea that Himmler is a "baby" compared to Mao or Stalin, which is an assertion that trivializes his manifestly horrifying deeds. This is indeed a challenging question, but people simply dismissing the reasoned, reasonably-stated video of one individual out of hand is fairly ridiculous.

That’s something we all need to be aware of.
I don’t even think the video from that YouTuber, expressing his concerns about the direction of the game, is invalid. It’s an important aspect that deserves consideration.

Understanding the perspective of this German community doesn’t mean you’re a leftist or liberal.
I think it’s okay to include such elements, and I could play without even noticing that. I wouldn't care that much tbh.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von sorry07:

How much of a liberal do you have to be a sissy to get emotional pain from a picture in a game? I feel sorry for you, in all the textbooks, on YouTube, on Google, in the photo. ♥♥♥♥ leaders have full-fledged photos everywhere, if you don't like something, just don't play, no need to impose your ♥♥♥♥♥

That’s a very new experience for me—being called a leftist.
I’m responding to you on behalf of all the others who accuse me of the same.

The original post isn’t my opinion; I was simply sharing information about a video that was posted on YouTube.
How does that make me aligned with their opinion?

It’s so disappointing that these days, everyone is instantly categorized as either left or right, without the ability to simply talk.
I wish we (as a community) could have discussions like we used to in the Steam Community about 10 years ago…

Yeah - you've been nothing but civil throughout this thread. I agree about the disintegration of civil discourse online.

[Inquerion]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von N*rd:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Shad1902:

it doesn't

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/08/10/europe/germany-video-games-♥♥♥♥-symbols-intl/index.html

They’re not upset about the depiction of swastikas. The YouTuber criticizes Paradox for crossing a line by glorifying the ideology of National Socialism through fleshing out specific ♥♥♥♥ party leaders and their doctrines.

This is done while using typical (♥♥♥♥)German neutral language, which implies things like the Holocaust or other atrocities committed by the Nazis without directly addressing them.

You don't even own Hoi4.

You have Medieval 2 TW and other Total Wars as one of your "favourite games" where you can do Jihad and Crusades and enslave or kill and burn entire cities and you don't seem to mind that.

You have Age of Empires where you can do good old western colonialism and you also don't seem to mind that.

You also have CK3 where you can basically do eugenics program to keep your bloodline pure and you don't mind that either.

You are clearly farming clown awards. Or you are just a hypocrite.

Let people enjoy their games. You don't like it? Don't play it.

You are like these old religious farts in 1990s complaining that classics like Doom or Quake are praising Satan and videogames should be banned or at least censored.

[Oleg Jughashvili]

Meanwhile, actual German patriots are voting for the German AFD party.
Based as fo-ok

[N*rd]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von TheCollector:

I guess Paradox could simply fix this whole affair by providing a UI option to choose between the previous "anonymous" german cabinet and the named one.
It's not like they implemented the SD's Massacres, Death Camps, Gas Chambers or Mass Starvation in HOI ...

I can understand that Steinwallen distances himself from a simulation game where he would handle a cabinet of named ♥♥♥♥ leaders and does not stream it ... that would cross a social red line in Germany and may also have consequences for sponsoring, etc.

He probably could do a video where he compares 3rd Reich history and crimes with the HOI game design, but that would likely be a lot of work, a lot of history and not much game play.

I want to point out this suggestion—I forgot to highlight it earlier because I somehow overlooked it.
It would be a solution that makes things easier for content creators.

One issue raised in the video was the inability to blur or cover those faces again. This is especially important in times when getting canceled is easy, and demonetization can happen at any moment.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Inquerion:

You don't even own Hoi4.

[...]

Yes I do not own HOI4 on Steam- this does not imply that I never have played it.
I plan to buy it because I see not a big problem about that recent DLC.
Please read the OP again (and my other post or the one 2-3 posts above) you will notice that this is not my opinion.
I am basically reciting the linked Youtube-Video there.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Helium God:

Yeah - you've been nothing but civil throughout this thread. I agree about the disintegration of civil discourse online.

I try to be a good role model ...


Good night everyone - stay civil to each other.

[Benny]

German here, living in Denmark (an actual free country) most of my life.

Please understand that freedom of speech which includes the freedom to make art/games is fundemental in every democracy. If your democracy is not strong enough to withstand a company making games about the second war depicting characters in a way you do not like, it was not strong enough to withstand anything antidemocratic anyway. Either you want a historic game or a fantasy game with censored content?

Tl,dr, it is a videogame, move on. Mein Kampf in unedited version is freely available in all public libraries here, it is the best way to prevent NS, not by censor it.

Also, no young german alive is responsible for the second war. It is history, no need need to feel guilt for something your ancestors did. All countries have done wrong in some way at a time in history, what matters to us is what happens tomorrow.

"Was ist nach § 86a verboten?
Danach ist es strafbar, Kennzeichen einer verfassungswidrigen Organisation zu verbreiten oder öffentlich, in einer Versammlung oder in verbreiteten Schriften zu verwenden. Sinne sind „namentlich Fahnen, Abzeichen, Uniformstücke, Parolen und Grußfor- men“ (§ 86a Abs. 2 StGB)."

Es steht nichts über historische Bilder? Deine Logik ist völlig weg.

[Ice_King]

Glorifying something means to express approval, promote as good, ect. I don't see how this game does that. Germans and leftists are sensitive about this sort of thing but their sensitivity is their problem honestly. This all just reeks of cancel culture.

[lemurs2]

Better remove every American politician/general for war crimes. Get rid of all the British ones as well. Then get rid of Nappy and the French.
He is just another self flagellating idiot pretending that Germany was different from everyone else.

[MET]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von N*rd:

They believe Paradox crossed a line by glorifying figures like Heinrich Himmler, one of the major leaders involved in driving the Holocaust forward. They even added a laurel wreath to his portrait.

Additionally, the depiction of ♥♥♥♥ party members like Hitler, who was previously in the shadows and not visible, is problematic. According to German law, specifically paragraph 86a, such depictions are prohibited.



Link to Source (use subtitles)

This law does not apply "if the propaganda material or the act [of dissemination] serves civic information, to prevent unconstitutional activities, to promote the arts or science, research or teaching, reporting about current or historical events, or similar purposes." This is commonly called the "social adequacy clause".

In 1994, so two years after it was released, Wolfenstein 3D was put on the index. It wasn't illegal to own or sell, but you weren't allowed to advertise it, which included putting the box on a shelf. This was done however not because of the ♥♥♥♥ symbols but because of the violence and promotion of vigilantism.

Then in 1998, during a case against a neo-♥♥♥♥ who (among other things) had been sharing copies of Wolfenstein 3D, a court ruled that Wolfenstein 3D contained symbols of organisations hostile to the German constitution and was therefore illegal. However, the judge made an error. He didn't even check whether or not the social adequacy clause could be applied here. Some people think he said that the clause didn't apply and therefore ruled that video games aren't art, but that was not the case. For this reason, the ruling has been criticised for quite a while.
#3

[/AUSTRIA\Bomberman]

those people crying about it are clearly not the majority, they again are a minority thinking their opinions matter.
reworking the most played nation and the most played focus tree decission path should not be a bad thing otherwise we get games not made for gameplay reasons but for politics....

pls stop killing games with politics!
as a german main i didnt play this game for a while but im very interested in those changes and will buy this dlc at a sale! (probably every dlc at this point)