Sub-doctrines...

[joe.manuci]

Started Germany with a preset Moblie Warfare doctrine and wanted decide the sub-doctrin for armors... Most boni are for everything else EXCEPT for tanks.

"Armored spearhead" and "Armored Cavalry" are mainly for light tanks at the begining.
"Armored infantry support" gives for heavies and mediums +7 orga, which is great, but that's it nearly. +15% breakthrough on a heavy is not realy a must heave.
Other subdoctrines have a lot of boni for rare companies and armored cars (I still don't think that those are worh to build).
It seems that mechanized are now the king.
I'm confused.

[Aluminum Elite Master]

I have a feeling that sub-doctrines are going to get tweaks already, for the reasons listed by the OP:

There are too many sub-doctrines that meander all over the place. As in, I get the sub-doctrine but then the mastery bonuses aren't even that greatly related. Like okay, cool, I went streamlined armor and picked up the soft attack bonus right away... but the other stuff from the masteries doesn't always help directly.

The sub-doctrine issue is that there aren't enough choices, and the masteries for each choice are often a hodge-podge.

[Yogol]

I agree 100%. The MIOs also have that problem, but much, much less. Most sub-doctrines do not help you at all. Like... Mounted infantry breakthrough? Air Attack in Fire Concentration?!? Or Heavy Fighter Attack under Medium Aircraft? What is that about?!?

And some are just plein useless for everyone, like less Untrained pilot penalty: no one uses untrained pilots!

I know that Paradox likes to have a lot of features that each give you only a small advantages. I understand the reasons behind that principles.

But there has to be SOME advantage.

[joe.manuci]

Yes, e.g. a bonus for surface detection for subs in "Wolfpacks" may be logical but with the curent mechanics it seems useless.

I see now a bonus for "Tanks" with a general tank symbol and just below in the same doctrin a bonus for "Tanks and Armor variants" but with the symbol of SPG.
Does the second one really apply also for tanks or only for other armored designs?

[Magni]

Um, that's just plain wrong? The biggest single bullet point of Armoured Spearhead is that it gives +20% breakthrough to ALL tanks, and another +20% to all tanks and spgs/spaa/tank destroyers. The extra bonuses to light tanks and armored cars are more of a nice side benefit to the general buffs it provides to all armor. It's big drawback is no attack boosts at all.

Armored Infantry Support is big on buffing heavies, but still gives some neat bonuses to mediums and +15% hp to tanks from an armored maintenace company is actually pretty great at increasing the survivabilty of these expensive heavy tank divisions.

Streamlined Deployment is also pretty universal, with more of a emphasis on "soft" factors like org, supply etc that makes it most impactful if you field an absolute ♥♥♥♥ load of tanks. Also it wants you to use armored recon in your tank divs.

Mobile Defense is actually also kind of an allround thing for mediums and lights, with some side bonuses to armored support units and the ability to use towed support AT to buff all of your tanks' hard attack and piercing.

Armored Cavalry is the doctrine for combining light tanks and/or armored cars and mechanised infantry into "light" divisions.

And well, Tank Destroyers is about what you expect. +30% hard attack and piercing for TDs with the right support units will make even superheavies cry.

You need to actually read through the full sub-doctrine rather than just picking blindly and then complaining when it doesn't get you exactly what you thought it would. Additionally, I think people should look beyond single sub-doctrines and towards combinations that synergise with each other.

Like, try the historically accurate Germany build: Mobile Warfare with Mobile Infantry, Mobile Recon & Assault, Armoured Spearhead and Mission-Type Tactics. This gives you infantry and mot/mech units with insanely high org that can hold the line for a very long time, very big org recovery buffs and significantly less org loss from moving on basically your whole army and tanks with crazy high breakthrough stats (and a lot of soft attack if you add some SPGs) to use as your offensive units. Also everything has speed buffs and your planning speed is really, really fast.

Originally posted by Yogol:

I agree 100%. The MIOs also have that problem, but much, much less. Most sub-doctrines do not help you at all. Like... Mounted infantry breakthrough? Air Attack in Fire Concentration?!? Or Heavy Fighter Attack under Medium Aircraft? What is that about?!?

Fire Concentration is a sub-doctrine built all around towed guns, with an emphasis on line artillery, but also bonuses for anti-tank and AA gun units. And, well, heavy fighters ARE medium airframes. Where else would you put bonuses for them?

Mobile infantry giving extra breakthrough to mounted infantry is a conditional thing, potentially useful in the early game. And it's not like it makes the sub-doctrine bad or anything.

And some are just plein useless for everyone, like less Untrained pilot penalty: no one uses untrained pilots!

Ideally? No. Realities sometimes aren't ideal, though. Suffer a bloody enough air war and you can quite easily end up with both sides throwing the rookies in just to have the numbers up.

[Včelí medvídek]

Originally posted by Magni:

Um, that's just plain wrong? The biggest single bullet point of Armoured Spearhead is that it gives +20% breakthrough to ALL tanks, and another +20% to all tanks and spgs/spaa/tank destroyers...

Exactly this, lol. Was confused what the OP is talking about,

[[InsertGenericNameHere]]

Originally posted by Yogol:

I agree 100%. The MIOs also have that problem, but much, much less. Most sub-doctrines do not help you at all. Like... Mounted infantry breakthrough? Air Attack in Fire Concentration?!? Or Heavy Fighter Attack under Medium Aircraft? What is that about?!?

And some are just plein useless for everyone, like less Untrained pilot penalty: no one uses untrained pilots!

I know that Paradox likes to have a lot of features that each give you only a small advantages. I understand the reasons behind that principles.

But there has to be SOME advantage.

Air Attack is in Fire Concentration because that doctrine is about support fire...which includes calling in CAS strikes. It's all about using support units like artillery and air to help ground units assault.

Heavy Fighter Attack is in Medium Aircraft....because heavy fighters ARE medium aircraft.

Not sure what you mean by mounted infantry breakthrough.

Also, saying NOONE uses untrained pilots is a WILD statement to make considering a TON of people make air squadrons and don't train them before or especially as a war is progressing.

[Magni]

Originally posted by InsertGenericNameHere:

Air Attack is in Fire Concentration because that doctrine is about support fire...which includes calling in CAS strikes. It's all about using support units like artillery and air to help ground units assault.

Erm, the air attack it buffs is for towed anti-air units. Because Fire Concentration does buff those and anti-tank guns, besides the big buffs it gives to line artillery.

Not sure what you mean by mounted infantry breakthrough.

The first unlock in Mobile Infantry gives +20% breakthrough to mounted infantry units IE cavalry and related stuff. Which is actually potentially useful in the early game and/or for small and poor nations. It still gives mroe than enough buffs to normal infantry and especially mot/mech overall to be very good for specific playstyles, too.

[Yogol]

The system is not only a lot less good, it is a lot less exciting then before.

Instead of getting excited because you could pick a step in a doctrine that changed your playstyle. But with the changes you only pick the top and all the other steps come by themselves, completely invisible to you. And even those top are sometimes useless for you, because what you need is only in step two or four. It is a lot less fun.

Aside from that, no one likes a sub-doctrine where more than half the steps are pretty much useless to you.

[CaptainSpacetime]

If we time-travelled back a month ago and saw someone post like about how "exciting" clicking to spend 100 army pp was they'd be laughed at.

I guess they could force you to click the button to activate it? But then that's just the MIO issue where everyone just queues up their choices because just clicking is boring.

[Včelí medvídek]

Originally posted by Yogol:

The system is not only a lot less good, it is a lot less exciting then before.

Instead of getting excited because you could pick a step in a doctrine that changed your playstyle. But with the changes you only pick the top and all the other steps come by themselves, completely invisible to you. And even those top are sometimes useless for you, because what you need is only in step two or four. It is a lot less fun.

Aside from that, no one likes a sub-doctrine where more than half the steps are pretty much useless to you.

I would say exactly opposite.

Before you were stuck with the doctrine setting depsite you did not used half of it. Now you can combine it exactly accord your needs and playstyle.

Using tanks for brekathrough and Infantry for static defense? Great, than you cna combine armored spearhead with Defensive Postures for example.

And nothing is invisible at all. You can hover and get info about all Mastery levels in advance. Also you get ingame notification with exact bonuses you unlock at moment you reach new mastery level, just withotu siwtching windows.

So no - it is smarter, more variable and practical than it used to.

[Yogol]

Originally posted by CaptainSpacetime:

If we time-travelled back a month ago and saw someone post like about how "exciting" clicking to spend 100 army pp was they'd be laughed at.

I guess they could force you to click the button to activate it? But then that's just the MIO issue where everyone just queues up their choices because just clicking is boring.

Personally, I do not know people that laugh at players when they can pick a reward for achieving a certain target, but I guess we do not travel in the same circles.

And I, for one, do not queue many MIOs. Well, except to skip useless steps. Useless steps make me feel sad, so I rather not know about them!

[Mack]

Why would tank doctrines help your submarines?

[Bored Peon]

Originally posted by Magni:

Um, that's just plain wrong?

Good explanation. Here is something that simplifies it more.

Every country get the same level I-V mastery bonuses for subdoctrines.
That first choice you pick is what will be your special bonus.

I found it hard to decide which to take because there was a bunch of good ones.

[Magni]

Originally posted by Yogol:

Originally posted by CaptainSpacetime:

If we time-travelled back a month ago and saw someone post like about how "exciting" clicking to spend 100 army pp was they'd be laughed at.

I guess they could force you to click the button to activate it? But then that's just the MIO issue where everyone just queues up their choices because just clicking is boring.

Personally, I do not know people that laugh at players when they can pick a reward for achieving a certain target, but I guess we do not travel in the same circles.

And I, for one, do not queue many MIOs. Well, except to skip useless steps. Useless steps make me feel sad, so I rather not know about them!

Dude. in the old system, you had EXACTLY one or two binary choices after picking your doctrine: Left side or right side branch.

Now, you have four decisions to make, and each has at least like 6 different things you can pick and choose from to fine-tune your army/navy/airforce.

[Shad1902]

the amount of people being unable to read the tooltips is damn too high.

I won't comment on how weird it is that medium frames get heavy fighter bonuses...others already did...

At this point it is clear that there's a lack of understanding...and a lot of people just rely on what is "meta" because a random youtuber told them so.

The new system is a lot better than the old one, no doubt about that. It just messes up the old meta, and the new meta doesn't exist yet. The random youtubers need to wait for other youtubers to come up with a new meta, and in the meantime we get complaints because people don't read the tooltips.