Armored support vehicles are all over the place

[Bored Peon]

I like the concept of this feature, but the implementation is horrid.

- If I use a tag for the armor template then it constantly spams the production is missing for armored supports. In other words if I design an amphibious tank and give it the turtle then that template causes a missing production upon reinforcing.

- They made research for all the different types, yet they all use the same source for reinforcements. For example if you add armor engineers, armor maintenance, and armor command center they all pool into the same category for production and reinforcing.

- When I played the US the Fast and Light Tank manufacturer gave bonuses and earned funds for producing them. Yet all the other countries they do not count towards light tanks MIOs.

- The bonuses are wacky and all over the place. For example the Maintenance Support company that does not even require trucks does a better jobs than the armored tow vehicle. The same with signal units for the command center. It just makes no sense.

- I think the amount of time to research the special project and then research each type individually is just too lengthy. Like if you already have maintenance researched it seems six months is a long time to research something that does a worse job than some vehicle-less people with toolbags. I do not play multiplayer but I do not ever see these being useful in multiplayer, ever.

I also have not taken a close look with before and after comparisons to all the terrain bonuses. Like for example the Mineflayer and the Bridgelayer are both for Armored Engineer support and not sure if there is a difference which is in the template to what the terrain bonuses are.

[Mack]

Don't use tags. They're not worth the hassle. Produce one, untagged version of that type of vehicle, and leave it. When a unit is missing a vehicle, it's better to have one than not. And to be honest, there's rarely any situation where I've thought "I really wish I could make two types of the same vehicle, but split them by tag".

I can think of a few ways I might want that, eg, a slow medium tank for supporting infantry with a howitzer, and a fast medium tank with a regular cannon for tank divisions but the way the game works it's not worth the extra micro. In that situation I'd just use a heavy tank for the infantry version.

On my game I'm looking at right now, all the armoured support companies use a single type of vehicle: "Armoured Support Vehicle". You get different types of vehicles show up in production when you research the three types of armoured support, but they're just variant replicas of Armoured Support. TBH should probably be fixed in a patch because it's confusing.

They made research for all the different types, yet they all use the same source for reinforcements

Yes. For the same reason that Motorised Recon uses Trucks just like Motorised Logistics does. You aren't researching the vehicle, you're researching how to make that type of support unit.

the Maintenance Support company that does not even require trucks does a better jobs than the armored tow vehicle

The normal maintenance support provides a better reliability bonus compared to armoured maintenance and reduced fuel usage, but has inferior combat stats. Armoured Maintenance also has a "Recovery" stat that regular maintenance doesn't, that I assume means Armoured Maintenance can recover it's own unit vehicles, which a regular Maintenance doesn't (it only improves reliability and captures enemy equipment).

[Bored Peon]

Originally posted by Mack:

Don't use tags. They're not worth the hassle.

If I design a medium tank with amphibious engine I have it tagged as a turtle. Without a tag the game will try to shove any medium tank in as a reinforcement, including ones captured. You would be surprised at how effective a Marine division is with amphibious tanks when it comes to river crossings and how many rivers there are in game.

It was more about the armored vehicles using a tag system when they do not have a tag on them.

Originally posted by Mack:

the Maintenance Support company that does not even require trucks does a better jobs than the armored tow vehicle

The normal maintenance support provides a better reliability bonus compared to armoured maintenance and reduced fuel usage, but has inferior combat stats. Armoured Maintenance also has a "Recovery" stat that regular maintenance doesn't, that I assume means Armoured Maintenance can recover it's own unit vehicles, which a regular Maintenance doesn't (it only improves reliability and captures enemy equipment).

Recovery stat is how quick a unit regains organization.
Reliability is the check for salvaging/repairing equipment to make up for losses during the battle. If you can get reliability over 100% you can actually gain tanks.

Originally posted by Mack:

They made research for all the different types, yet they all use the same source for reinforcements

Yes. For the same reason that Motorised Recon uses Trucks just like Motorised Logistics does. You aren't researching the vehicle, you're researching how to make that type of support unit.

That is the same but not. It is right for drawing the same equipment, but motorized does not have a production for each type.

Originally posted by Mack:

On my game I'm looking at right now, all the armoured support companies use a single type of vehicle: "Armoured Support Vehicle". You get different types of vehicles show up in production when you research the three types of armoured support, but they're just variant replicas of Armoured Support. TBH should probably be fixed in a patch because it's confusing.

Yeah it is confusing at first until you realize they did a great job making the different models only to make them not matter, lol.

Originally posted by Mack:

I can think of a few ways I might want that, eg, a slow medium tank for supporting infantry with a howitzer, and a fast medium tank with a regular cannon for tank divisions but the way the game works it's not worth the extra micro. In that situation I'd just use a heavy tank for the infantry version.

Make your slow version for the infantry give it and the template the turtle tag.
Edit that version then click save as new with a rabbit tag for the armor template.
Then make a production for both.

Then if you overbuild one type and short the other simply decommission the design with the surplus and use conversion on the other.

[Ahriman]

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

If I design a medium tank with amphibious engine I have it tagged as a turtle. Without a tag the game will try to shove any medium tank in as a reinforcement, including ones captured. You would be surprised at how effective a Marine division is with amphibious tanks when it comes to river crossings and how many rivers there are in game.

Huh? How do you do this? Amphibious Drive forces you to change it into a Amphibious Tank, which does not share the Medium Tank category, thus it wouldn't try to force Medium Tanks into your Marine Division as the Template uses Amphibious Medium Tanks. How do you force the game to accept Medium Tanks with the Amphibious Drive in it?

[Bored Peon]

Originally posted by Ahriman:

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

If I design a medium tank with amphibious engine I have it tagged as a turtle. Without a tag the game will try to shove any medium tank in as a reinforcement, including ones captured. You would be surprised at how effective a Marine division is with amphibious tanks when it comes to river crossings and how many rivers there are in game.

Huh? How do you do this? Amphibious Drive forces you to change it into a Amphibious Tank, which does not share the Medium Tank category, thus it wouldn't try to force Medium Tanks into your Marine Division as the Template uses Amphibious Medium Tanks. How do you force the game to accept Medium Tanks with the Amphibious Drive in it?

When you make a tank template with medium tanks in it the template sees "medium tank" when reinforcing it does not give a @#$% whether it has an amphibious drive or not. Which is why you have to use tags to prevent that.

You are correct to assume with common sense that putting the amphibious tank into the template would restrict it to amphibious tanks only and it would keep amphibious tanks out of your normal medium tank templates. However we live in the modern age where game developers do not always test their code. Then when you apply the prioritization of such an issue it depends upon the amount of complaints to fix it on that priority.

The way I learned this was I had two 1943 medium designs with the only difference being armor skirts/amphibious drive in the two designs. Obviously the amphibious was in a Marine template and the Armored Skirt was in a normal armor template.

[Mack]

You don't need to select the turtle to make it only work with amphibious divisions. Medium Amphib tanks are their own category. If you convert a medium tank division to using medium amphibs, if you don't have any amphib mediums then the units won't have equipment. They don't use medium tanks instead.

I just tested it and none of the tank units I converted used their medium tanks, they all went empty of tanks because they're waiting for medium amphibs.

And I just tested it the other way around, I deleted all the medium tanks in my storage and tried to make them use the thousands of amphib mediums they already had (switching template from Medium Amphib to regular Medium Tank). Didn't work. They just sit there without tanks, and the game says you're missing equipment production if you aren't making mediums.

So I'm not sure what's going on in your game but it's not how it works at least for me.

Do you have any mods enabled? Because the behaviour you say is happening (game doesn't care if a medium tank is an actual "Medium Tank" or if it's an "Amphibious Medium Tank", it will use both in a division), isn't what the game is intended to be.

[demonon]

Originally posted by Mack:

Don't use tags. They're not worth the hassle. Produce one, untagged version of that type of vehicle, and leave it. When a unit is missing a vehicle, it's better to have one than not. And to be honest, there's rarely any situation where I've thought "I really wish I could make two types of the same vehicle, but split them by tag".

I can think of a few ways I might want that, eg, a slow medium tank for supporting infantry with a howitzer, and a fast medium tank with a regular cannon for tank divisions but the way the game works it's not worth the extra micro. In that situation I'd just use a heavy tank for the infantry version.

On my game I'm looking at right now, all the armoured support companies use a single type of vehicle: "Armoured Support Vehicle". You get different types of vehicles show up in production when you research the three types of armoured support, but they're just variant replicas of Armoured Support. TBH should probably be fixed in a patch because it's confusing.

They made research for all the different types, yet they all use the same source for reinforcements

Yes. For the same reason that Motorised Recon uses Trucks just like Motorised Logistics does. You aren't researching the vehicle, you're researching how to make that type of support unit.

the Maintenance Support company that does not even require trucks does a better jobs than the armored tow vehicle

The normal maintenance support provides a better reliability bonus compared to armoured maintenance and reduced fuel usage, but has inferior combat stats. Armoured Maintenance also has a "Recovery" stat that regular maintenance doesn't, that I assume means Armoured Maintenance can recover it's own unit vehicles, which a regular Maintenance doesn't (it only improves reliability and captures enemy equipment).

What we need is the ability to apply tags to battalions/companies. Or add a "min equipment speed" because you really don't want a fast tank division slowed down by a single old variant.

[Bored Peon]

Originally posted by demonon:

What we need is the ability to apply tags to battalions/companies. Or add a "min equipment speed" because you really don't want a fast tank division slowed down by a single old variant.

Change the tag on the older tank.
Duplicate the template and change the tag.
That is free to do that.

[joe.manuci]

Even with all 3 support-armor techs researched, I have only one armored supporting unit available for production. So: No tags possible.
But maybe it's so only because I don't have the GöDä DLC.

The issue with different equipment and speed can be solved with equipment selection in the division desing window.
I build 2 tank designs: slow one to add to infantery and a fast one for tank division.
In the tank division template I deselect then all tank designs and select only the fast one. For infantery I allow all designs (also forein) but exclude the fast one.

It's some micro management needed each time I change tank-designs, but it works well for me.

[Ahriman]

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

When you make a tank template with medium tanks in it the template sees "medium tank" when reinforcing it does not give a @#$% whether it has an amphibious drive or not. Which is why you have to use tags to prevent that.

You are correct to assume with common sense that putting the amphibious tank into the template would restrict it to amphibious tanks only and it would keep amphibious tanks out of your normal medium tank templates. However we live in the modern age where game developers do not always test their code. Then when you apply the prioritization of such an issue it depends upon the amount of complaints to fix it on that priority.

The way I learned this was I had two 1943 medium designs with the only difference being armor skirts/amphibious drive in the two designs. Obviously the amphibious was in a Marine template and the Armored Skirt was in a normal armor template.

As Mack put it, this shouldn't be even remotely possible. The base code itself physically doesn't allow this to happen. Amph. Tanks of all sorts, from Light to Super Heavy, are their own tag entirely in the code. If this was actually happening in vanilla code, you'd see it happen across their other equipment as well, Trucks replacing Mech, Infantry Equipment replacing Support Equipment, and so on.

That's why this is so odd, in my 1000+ hours of HoI, I have never witnessed this, and as someone that plays a lot of US who utilises Amph. Tanks and Tanks, I have a hunch I should have come across this bug more than once if this was the case. The only time I have seen this to potentially happen is if I use a mod that allows one to add Amph. Drives onto their vehicles without needing to turn it into an Amph. Tank, as a lot of mods like to do this.

Vanilla however outright changes it into a tag of its own, and you are not given the choice to do otherwise. Amph. Drive forces the Amph. Tank role on it, thus forcing the Tag on the equipment. So if this was really unmodded you were playing, then there is something extremely weird going on with your game.

The tank example alone is a bit odd, because if the only difference is Skirts vs Amph. Drive, that isn't entirely correct. The difference would have to be that 1 is a Medium Tank, the other is an Amph. Medium Tank in their tags.

I would like to know how to replicate this bug, because my own tests line up with those of Mack. If I have Medium Tanks and Amph. Medium Tanks, they never mix, so I am very curious what you do so differently that it does happen.

[Bored Peon]

Originally posted by joe.manuci:

Even with all 3 support-armor techs researched, I have only one armored supporting unit available for production. So: No tags possible.
But maybe it's so only because I don't have the GöDä DLC.

Nah, it is buggy as @#$%. My last game I choose the Command tank support as the one to invest army xp in to upgrade. After investing in it it switched to the mineflayer.

[Bored Peon]

Originally posted by Ahriman:

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

When you make a tank template with medium tanks in it the template sees "medium tank" when reinforcing it does not give a @#$% whether it has an amphibious drive or not. Which is why you have to use tags to prevent that.

I would like to know how to replicate this bug, because my own tests line up with those of Mack. If I have Medium Tanks and Amph. Medium Tanks, they never mix, so I am very curious what you do so differently that it does happen.

I am talking about making a medium tank with an amphibious drive in it, not a plain "amphibious tank." The game still sees it as a medium tank, even though it has the amphibious in the drop down menu.

Without using any tags it was the Medium Amphibious tanks being used to fill in medium tanks in the non-amphibious tank template.

It may have even been patched out by now, as it happened maybe six months ago? Hard to say because once I started tagging it did not happen anymore.

[Ahriman]

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

I am talking about making a medium tank with an amphibious drive in it, not a plain "amphibious tank." The game still sees it as a medium tank, even though it has the amphibious in the drop down menu.

Without using any tags it was the Medium Amphibious tanks being used to fill in medium tanks in the non-amphibious tank template.

It may have even been patched out by now, as it happened maybe six months ago? Hard to say because once I started tagging it did not happen anymore.

That explains it, because that means you weren't doing vanilla. Vanilla doesn't allow the Amph. Drive to be there without making it an Amph. Tank, it forbids the Medium Tank Role entirely. The moment you slap the Amph. Drive on it, you have to make it into an Amph. Tank, which then translates into whatever type your Tank is, be it Light, Medium, Heavy, or Super Heavy.

[Bored Peon]

Originally posted by Ahriman:

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

I am talking about making a medium tank with an amphibious drive in it, not a plain "amphibious tank." The game still sees it as a medium tank, even though it has the amphibious in the drop down menu.

Without using any tags it was the Medium Amphibious tanks being used to fill in medium tanks in the non-amphibious tank template.

It may have even been patched out by now, as it happened maybe six months ago? Hard to say because once I started tagging it did not happen anymore.

That explains it, because that means you weren't doing vanilla.

Well that aint a very good explanation because I do not play with mods.