You should be able to buy your own resources

[Shotty Man]

Playing a game where I've got a pretty small rubber shortage. I'm on export focus, and the only resource I am lacking is rubber. I really don't want to downgrade to limited exports since the only thing I need is rubber and I'm in a situation where I need all the production bonuses I can get. I have some refineries, and I noticed that none of the 31 rubber I'm "exporting" is being purchased by anyone. Makes no sense that those resources which I really need are just being thrown away despite me having a shortage. You should be able to buy from your own market as if you were a foreign country on the trade screen, I don't care if it's overpowered or whatever, it's stupid that a bunch of resources I need are effectively being tossed into the ocean because an arbitrary trade requirement says I can't have them.

[mk11]

Doesn't mean they are being tossed in the ocean. It means they are being used for purposes other than military build up by other nations. May be the USA is buying lots of rubber ducks for their swimming pools.

[Graf Schokola]

set to closed eco = buy your own resources

[AdmiralPiett]

Originally posted by Graf Schokola:

set to closed eco = buy your own resources

this right here

[Shotty Man]

Originally posted by Graf Schokola:

set to closed eco = buy your own resources

AKA handicap your entire industry when you're short on equipment and need to repair infrastructure because you're missing 10 rubber. It's stupid that I have to forfeit all the factories I get from trade to get the relatively tiny amount of resources that I am producing but are on the market, nevermind the bonuses to production you get from export focus/free trade. Also makes no sense from a historical/RP point of view.

[lakupupu]

Originally posted by AdmiralPiett:

Originally posted by Graf Schokola:

set to closed eco = buy your own resources

this right here

not a solution to the problem op has, and too risky to close the economy and lose out on precious civs

Originally posted by Shotty Man:

Playing a game where I've got a pretty small rubber shortage. I'm on export focus, and the only resource I am lacking is rubber. I really don't want to downgrade to limited exports since the only thing I need is rubber and I'm in a situation where I need all the production bonuses I can get. I have some refineries, and I noticed that none of the 31 rubber I'm "exporting" is being purchased by anyone. Makes no sense that those resources which I really need are just being thrown away despite me having a shortage. You should be able to buy from your own market as if you were a foreign country on the trade screen, I don't care if it's overpowered or whatever, it's stupid that a bunch of resources I need are effectively being tossed into the ocean because an arbitrary trade requirement says I can't have them.

tossed in the ocean, they're on the market available for purchase but ai rarely does good financial decisions or buys the right equipment or resources

free trade is horrible for resources, export focus is manageable
presuming you're a major power with correct production, a rubber shortage isnt bad and takes a few civs to fix unless you're doing the equivalent of an MP planes build where you will probably have allies anyway, and the trade factories can help you to build synthetic rubber to offset it anyway, even if some of it goes to the market

since the player is the government, it would make sense to be able to tell all producers of a resource that it wont be exported to the world market, only the internal market

[FreZZy]

they are not tossed in ocean, in vacuum you can imagine that when you go closed economy - resources used for research/other bonuses now avaible, so thats why you get debuff in research.

Besides, how it supposed to work? you buying own steel and getting factory.. yourself? doesnt make any sense. And i dont even start with "its a game bruh, thats how it works". You dont ask why knight in chess moves that way.

[AdmiralPiett]

Originally posted by lakupupu:

Originally posted by AdmiralPiett:

this right here

not a solution to the problem op has, and too risky to close the economy and lose out on precious civs

If you want protectionist trade laws, your economy is going to suffer. Free trade means losing out on more control over homegrown resources, but a bigger economy.

You can't have your cake and eat it too

[CaptainSpacetime]

Originally posted by Shotty Man:

Originally posted by Graf Schokola:

set to closed eco = buy your own resources

AKA handicap your entire industry when you're short on equipment and need to repair infrastructure because you're missing 10 rubber. It's stupid that I have to forfeit all the factories I get from trade to get the relatively tiny amount of resources that I am producing but are on the market, nevermind the bonuses to production you get from export focus/free trade. Also makes no sense from a historical/RP point of view.

But it literally does make sense from a historical/RP point of view? That's the point of the trade-off between export economy and the others. Your country is producing rubber but the government can't just requisition it at will from private companies or whatever.

[drewbstar]

Originally posted by CaptainSpacetime:

Originally posted by Shotty Man:

AKA handicap your entire industry when you're short on equipment and need to repair infrastructure because you're missing 10 rubber. It's stupid that I have to forfeit all the factories I get from trade to get the relatively tiny amount of resources that I am producing but are on the market, nevermind the bonuses to production you get from export focus/free trade. Also makes no sense from a historical/RP point of view.

But it literally does make sense from a historical/RP point of view? That's the point of the trade-off between export economy and the others. Your country is producing rubber but the government can't just requisition it at will from private companies or whatever.

This is, IMHO, one of the weaker aspects of HOI4. Abstracting resources and production is smart and makes the game playable, but the economy law feels a little too simplified.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Production_Board

There was plenty of protectionist measures in place that didn’t require locking down the entire economy. I’ve seen various ideas in mods, like RT56’s constructable resource buildings. Or events about salvage or conservation of important resources.

I always found it a little annoying having an abundance of resources, except for one (mostly rubber or aluminium) that I’m extracting but not retaining, often just under by a marginal amount.

You should be able to retain a single type of resource, or at least reduce the out of resource penalty without changing your economy law.
“Mr. President, we’re running low on rubber, should we declare it’s an important resource and direct civilians to not waste it?”
“No! Nationalize our entire production of steel, chromium, and aluminium so that we can get slightly more rubber!”

For example, a decision that can only be done once, pick between each resource type. Fuel rationing for oil, civilian drives for steel/alu, rubber recycling programs, etc.

I don’t disagree with the fundamental idea behind the economy laws, I just think that the execution could use a little work. There have been times while playing late game USA after taking over several major countries where I’ll have an excess of over 1,000 oil, 1,000 steel, and so on but still need rubber.

[AdmiralPiett]

Originally posted by drewbstar:

Originally posted by CaptainSpacetime:

But it literally does make sense from a historical/RP point of view? That's the point of the trade-off between export economy and the others. Your country is producing rubber but the government can't just requisition it at will from private companies or whatever.

This is, IMHO, one of the weaker aspects of HOI4. Abstracting resources and production is smart and makes the game playable, but the economy law feels a little too simplified.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Production_Board

There was plenty of protectionist measures in place that didn’t require locking down the entire economy. I’ve seen various ideas in mods, like RT56’s constructable resource buildings. Or events about salvage or conservation of important resources.

I always found it a little annoying having an abundance of resources, except for one (mostly rubber or aluminium) that I’m extracting but not retaining, often just under by a marginal amount.

You should be able to retain a single type of resource, or at least reduce the out of resource penalty without changing your economy law.
“Mr. President, we’re running low on rubber, should we declare it’s an important resource and direct civilians to not waste it?”
“No! Nationalize our entire production of steel, chromium, and aluminium so that we can get slightly more rubber!”

For example, a decision that can only be done once, pick between each resource type. Fuel rationing for oil, civilian drives for steel/alu, rubber recycling programs, etc.

I don’t disagree with the fundamental idea behind the economy laws, I just think that the execution could use a little work. There have been times while playing late game USA after taking over several major countries where I’ll have an excess of over 1,000 oil, 1,000 steel, and so on but still need rubber.

But the issue isn't an absence of rationing. Rationing is simulated through the consumer goods factories mechanic. The issue here is IMPORT AND EXPORT TARIFFS which are simulated through the trade laws

[lakupupu]

Originally posted by AdmiralPiett:

If you want protectionist trade laws, your economy is going to suffer. Free trade means losing out on more control over homegrown resources, but a bigger economy.
You can't have your cake and eat it too

why would a country want to apply protectionism and limit all exports, so they can have more rubber? do you think this is what happens behind closed doors? applying 50% exports to all resources in a country, and moving it to 25% so they can get more of one specific resource they dont have as much as? what is there to prevent having 50% on all resources except the shortage resource?

if uranium were a resource in the game, would it gladly be traded away at free trade / export focus levels? at all?

as said here below

Originally posted by drewbstar:

This is, IMHO, one of the weaker aspects of HOI4. Abstracting resources and production is smart and makes the game playable, but the economy law feels a little too simplified.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Production_Board

There was plenty of protectionist measures in place that didn’t require locking down the entire economy. I’ve seen various ideas in mods, like RT56’s constructable resource buildings. Or events about salvage or conservation of important resources.

I always found it a little annoying having an abundance of resources, except for one (mostly rubber or aluminium) that I’m extracting but not retaining, often just under by a marginal amount.

You should be able to retain a single type of resource, or at least reduce the out of resource penalty without changing your economy law.
“Mr. President, we’re running low on rubber, should we declare it’s an important resource and direct civilians to not waste it?”
“No! Nationalize our entire production of steel, chromium, and aluminium so that we can get slightly more rubber!”

For example, a decision that can only be done once, pick between each resource type. Fuel rationing for oil, civilian drives for steel/alu, rubber recycling programs, etc.

I don’t disagree with the fundamental idea behind the economy laws, I just think that the execution could use a little work. There have been times while playing late game USA after taking over several major countries where I’ll have an excess of over 1,000 oil, 1,000 steel, and so on but still need rubber.

what is being asked for here is the ability to direct export bans or control how much of a single resource goes on the market (example, rubber, which is one of the more important materials ingame) on a specific resource
could be balanced out by being a high-pp decision or otherwise being costly
it's ensuring domestic supply so you can use it for war material production, instead of isolating your economy or drastically reducing trade. it is what makes trade laws in a sense arbitrarily strict and oversimplified


inciting arguments out of thin air is counterproductive, as well

[Rewski]

its not protectionism

[drewbstar]

Originally posted by AdmiralPiett:

Originally posted by drewbstar:

This is, IMHO, one of the weaker aspects of HOI4. Abstracting resources and production is smart and makes the game playable, but the economy law feels a little too simplified.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Production_Board

There was plenty of protectionist measures in place that didn’t require locking down the entire economy. I’ve seen various ideas in mods, like RT56’s constructable resource buildings. Or events about salvage or conservation of important resources.

I always found it a little annoying having an abundance of resources, except for one (mostly rubber or aluminium) that I’m extracting but not retaining, often just under by a marginal amount.

You should be able to retain a single type of resource, or at least reduce the out of resource penalty without changing your economy law.
“Mr. President, we’re running low on rubber, should we declare it’s an important resource and direct civilians to not waste it?”
“No! Nationalize our entire production of steel, chromium, and aluminium so that we can get slightly more rubber!”

For example, a decision that can only be done once, pick between each resource type. Fuel rationing for oil, civilian drives for steel/alu, rubber recycling programs, etc.

I don’t disagree with the fundamental idea behind the economy laws, I just think that the execution could use a little work. There have been times while playing late game USA after taking over several major countries where I’ll have an excess of over 1,000 oil, 1,000 steel, and so on but still need rubber.

But the issue isn't an absence of rationing. Rationing is simulated through the consumer goods factories mechanic. The issue here is IMPORT AND EXPORT TARIFFS which are simulated through the trade laws

I always figured consumer good factories to be more of a budget of a nation, abstracted to an easy mechanic.
Higher economic laws were focusing more of the budget towards military expenditure. I don’t disagree that rationing would be part of that, but we’re abstracted from things like food or ammo production in the first place.

Either way, my point remains the the trade law/resource systems were okay in 2016, but could be improved upon now.

Prospecting was an okay option, with WtT part of the base game now I’m wishing that they would take some time to focus in on it again.

You shouldn’t have to nationalize your entire industry or apply sweeping tarrifs just to retain some more rubber. Being able to do trade agreements with nations (e.g the USA providing oil to the UK in exchange for aluminium or another bonus) should be an option.
Or more directly, each resource could have its own mini-trade law. The USA could have steel set to export focus while rubber is set to limited exports.
Doesn’t need to be Stellaris-tier, just a little more modular than we have now.

There should obviously be downsides for limiting your resources, but it makes no sense to screw your allies out of your resources and yourself out of bonuses to retain 1 resource when you have the other 5 in abundance.

You should be able to buy your excess resources, even at a higher cost or something.

[AdmiralPiett]

Originally posted by drewbstar:

Originally posted by AdmiralPiett:

But the issue isn't an absence of rationing. Rationing is simulated through the consumer goods factories mechanic. The issue here is IMPORT AND EXPORT TARIFFS which are simulated through the trade laws

I always figured consumer good factories to be more of a budget of a nation, abstracted to an easy mechanic.
Higher economic laws were focusing more of the budget towards military expenditure. I don’t disagree that rationing would be part of that, but we’re abstracted from things like food or ammo production in the first place.

Either way, my point remains the the trade law/resource systems were okay in 2016, but could be improved upon now.

Prospecting was an okay option, with WtT part of the base game now I’m wishing that they would take some time to focus in on it again.

You shouldn’t have to nationalize your entire industry or apply sweeping tarrifs just to retain some more rubber. Being able to do trade agreements with nations (e.g the USA providing oil to the UK in exchange for aluminium or another bonus) should be an option.
Or more directly, each resource could have its own mini-trade law. The USA could have steel set to export focus while rubber is set to limited exports.
Doesn’t need to be Stellaris-tier, just a little more modular than we have now.

There should obviously be downsides for limiting your resources, but it makes no sense to screw your allies out of your resources and yourself out of bonuses to retain 1 resource when you have the other 5 in abundance.

You should be able to buy your excess resources, even at a higher cost or something.

Originally posted by lakupupu:

Originally posted by AdmiralPiett:

If you want protectionist trade laws, your economy is going to suffer. Free trade means losing out on more control over homegrown resources, but a bigger economy.
You can't have your cake and eat it too

why would a country want to apply protectionism and limit all exports, so they can have more rubber? do you think this is what happens behind closed doors? applying 50% exports to all resources in a country, and moving it to 25% so they can get more of one specific resource they dont have as much as? what is there to prevent having 50% on all resources except the shortage resource?

if uranium were a resource in the game, would it gladly be traded away at free trade / export focus levels? at all?

as said here below

Originally posted by drewbstar:

This is, IMHO, one of the weaker aspects of HOI4. Abstracting resources and production is smart and makes the game playable, but the economy law feels a little too simplified.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Production_Board

There was plenty of protectionist measures in place that didn’t require locking down the entire economy. I’ve seen various ideas in mods, like RT56’s constructable resource buildings. Or events about salvage or conservation of important resources.

I always found it a little annoying having an abundance of resources, except for one (mostly rubber or aluminium) that I’m extracting but not retaining, often just under by a marginal amount.

You should be able to retain a single type of resource, or at least reduce the out of resource penalty without changing your economy law.
“Mr. President, we’re running low on rubber, should we declare it’s an important resource and direct civilians to not waste it?”
“No! Nationalize our entire production of steel, chromium, and aluminium so that we can get slightly more rubber!”

For example, a decision that can only be done once, pick between each resource type. Fuel rationing for oil, civilian drives for steel/alu, rubber recycling programs, etc.

I don’t disagree with the fundamental idea behind the economy laws, I just think that the execution could use a little work. There have been times while playing late game USA after taking over several major countries where I’ll have an excess of over 1,000 oil, 1,000 steel, and so on but still need rubber.

what is being asked for here is the ability to direct export bans or control how much of a single resource goes on the market (example, rubber, which is one of the more important materials ingame) on a specific resource
could be balanced out by being a high-pp decision or otherwise being costly
it's ensuring domestic supply so you can use it for war material production, instead of isolating your economy or drastically reducing trade. it is what makes trade laws in a sense arbitrarily strict and oversimplified


inciting arguments out of thin air is counterproductive, as well

Who's to say the government owns those resources themselves?

If the resources are theoretically being extracted and also sold abroad by private companies, the only two options for you (the government) to FORCIBLY keep some more of the materials home is to either nationalize the industry or impose tariffs through the trade laws. That's it. Period

So many HOI4 players these days want total control and the ability to play God with everything from diplomacy to economy, but that's just not realistic. This is HISTORICAL grand strategy, after all

[drewbstar]

Originally posted by AdmiralPiett:

Who's to say the government owns those resources themselves?

If the resources are theoretically being extracted and also sold abroad by private companies, the only two options for you (the government) to FORCIBLY keep some more of the materials home is to either nationalize the industry or impose tariffs through the trade laws. That's it. Period

So many HOI4 players these days want total control and the ability to play God with everything from diplomacy to economy, but that's just not realistic. This is HISTORICAL grand strategy, after all

The government says, lol.

There is more to the economy than just nationalizing an industry or imposing tariffs. There are numerous different controls and measures a government can take, especially in wartime, that is short of nationalization or isolation.

Read up on the Rubber Reserve Company and compare it to other resources. It controlled all of the USA’s imports of rubber and standardized and managed its sythentic rubber production. (Look at the creation of GR-S and the Rubber Survey Committee)
Yet, I wouldn’t classify the USA as going closed economy in 1940.

https://time.com/archive/6788216/rubber-inching-along-to-freedom/

https://www.acs.org/content/dam/acsorg/education/whatischemistry/landmarks/syntheticrubber/us-synthetic-rubber-program-historical-resourc.pdf

https://www.acs.org/education/whatischemistry/landmarks/syntheticrubber.html

And this could be modeled in-game with little change. Governments often get the right of first refusal, especially on key industries. This is partially shown with how you get a certain percentage of your resources, but the rest becomes intangible. You could purchase your own resources, even at a worse rate, and call it subsidies. Give it the always-lowest trade influence if you want to ensure other countries get it first.

Or as I said above, a trade law or agreement for each resource. There are plenty of nations that have an excess of steel but want to retain their oil. The fact your trade laws are all-or-nothing don’t reflect this.

As for the HISTORICAL comment, how is the USA protecting its rubber production (as it did in real life) more unrealistic than a second civil war? Lol.