Germany Sub usefulness vs AI

[Barry Cabbage]

I haven't used Submarines as a mainstay of my fleets in several years now wanting to get back into using them more I must ask how useful they are?

I honestly have my doubts as I'll never be able to keep them alive in the channel so Britain will be capable of using the channel to reinforce France without issue and I can hardly see a situation where I starve Britain since there's no point in fighting the Africa campaign or in Norway since once France is gone it's so easy to Knock Britain out with Para-Divisions.

With Britain gone and the war ended the USA wont be an issue since with the Commonwealth gone I'm not sure they'll even go to war with me let alone manage to cross the Atlantic.

the USSR only poses a threat of landing in the Baltic sea which is easily countered with the starting German surface fleet.

So... are subs truly useful as Germany? I just don't see a situation against the AI where they could be good.

[SGT Spack 7]

Subs are probably the best thing in the game, especially against USA ♥♥♥ and UK
subs are very cheap to produce do not need expensive resources and can do massive damage.
to use subs build a decent amount i like to have about 120 per admiral make sure you SPLIT them up or they'll die and watch the chaos.

dont raid anywhere where they have naval bombers so the channel is a no go

play as the soviets and watch japan burn as they have 100 divison in china with no supply and no way home as they have zero convoys to see the power of subby boys.

for germany play it historical send your boys before the war into the Atlantic and off the Portuguese coast and African coast if you can get naval access and watch the casualties rise then under air support use your surface navy to land in hull the ai never really garrisons it until late game

[Space Marine]

Britain lacks resources on its mainland, if you cut off Suez/Gibraltar, their resources will have to go around the entirety of Africa, leaving them only with one path in between South America and Africa, ready to be cut off by subs.
The Brits will try to get resources from the US, so you can spread out your subs through the Atlantic to stop any convoys getting there. (Best done with 1940 subs w/ snorkels)

[SpeedKiller.txt]

I tried subs again on my current run with the Ragnarok mod(you vs everyone) got a fleet with 200+ subs in 50 groups and it takes 1 DD with depth charges to kill all of them.

Subs are a complete waste of time in the current version of the game, you can only use them efficiently as convoi killers AND ONLY if there isnt a single ship or plane in the area which is able to destroy your subs

First I tried my own designs but it didnt work then I switched to the current "meta 1940 subs" and they dont work either, subs are just a waste of fuel and man power.

And I got all of the sub buffs on the admiral, the whole doctrin tree for subs, and the officer corps buff which gives your fleets 15%+ positioning which buffs sub stealth and some other things.

[umimatsu]

Originally posted by SpeedKiller.txt:

I tried subs again on my current run with the Ragnarok mod(you vs everyone) got a fleet with 200+ subs in 50 groups and it takes 1 DD with depth charges to kill all of them.

Subs are a complete waste of time in the current version of the game, you can only use them efficiently as convoi killers AND ONLY if there isnt a single ship or plane in the area which is able to destroy your subs

First I tried my own designs but it didnt work then I switched to the current "meta 1940 subs" and they dont work either, subs are just a waste of fuel and man power. :cleandino:

And I got all of the sub buffs on the admiral, the whole doctrin tree for subs, and the officer corps buff which gives your fleets 15%+ positioning which buffs sub stealth and some other things.

But Ragnarok isn't retail where subs are still a viable option against the horrible AI.

[velvetcrabman]

Originally posted by Barry Cabbage:

With Britain gone and the war ended the USA wont be an issue since with the Commonwealth gone I'm not sure they'll even go to war with me let alone manage to cross the Atlantic.

Oddly enough they can cross the Atlantic and seem happy too.

Sub's seem to be more than competent at what they were historically designed to do, provided they're upgraded and you design a scout version with radar. With 1 hunter squadron (10x radar equipped) set to "do not engage" and 9 killer squadrons you can keep a single ocean pretty clear of convoys, obviously more is better.

Originally posted by SpeedKiller.txt:

I tried subs again on my current run with the Ragnarok mod(you vs everyone) got a fleet with 200+ subs in 50 groups and it takes 1 DD with depth charges to kill all of them.

Don't know the mod but they'd probably die easily in groups of 4 in vanilla too, try 10's, may help, might not. Scout subs would probably help them to avoid that DD too.

[Barry Cabbage]

Originally posted by velvetcrabman:

Originally posted by Barry Cabbage:

With Britain gone and the war ended the USA wont be an issue since with the Commonwealth gone I'm not sure they'll even go to war with me let alone manage to cross the Atlantic.

Oddly enough they can cross the Atlantic and seem happy too.

Sub's seem to be more than competent at what they were historically designed to do, provided they're upgraded and you design a scout version with radar. With 1 hunter squadron (10x radar equipped) set to "do not engage" and 9 killer squadrons you can keep a single ocean pretty clear of convoys, obviously more is better.

I've never honestly considered using a specific group as "Recon" so much as formatting my fleets with one Radar and 4-9 normal subs, so that's a neat idea I ought to try out.

As for the US of A, I know they're happy to try but by the time they start a new war against me (if they even will start a new war with me) I'd of had at least one or two years with German, French and British Dockyards to build a surface fleet plus the time I'd have spent before the first war against the allies.

It's honestly far too easy to capitulate the Allies before 1940. if I were rendered incapable of sea-lion I would likely be a lot more invested in Subs, however I have not had a war last long enough for the USA to join it even when I'm playing casually.

as far as I'm aware recent Nerfs have seen subs made borderline incapable of inflicting damage to capital ships in fleets so at best you could prevent them from landing.

any way I cut it I cannot help but think it's worth more investing in a surface fleet to contest the waves rather than lurk from beneath.

[glythe]

Originally posted by Barry Cabbage:

I haven't used Submarines as a mainstay of my fleets in several years now wanting to get back into using them more I must ask how useful they are?

The Sub meta is out. Build real ships and be happier. Also you can build "fake ships".

Make Capital ships with no armor no speed no AA and the bare minimum of everything except things that are cheap and increase manpower. Why?

You can make : port sitter ships that increase naval power when set to assist naval invasion.

[Viceroy Günther von Lichler]

Originally posted by velvetcrabman:

Originally posted by Barry Cabbage:

With Britain gone and the war ended the USA wont be an issue since with the Commonwealth gone I'm not sure they'll even go to war with me let alone manage to cross the Atlantic.

Oddly enough they can cross the Atlantic and seem happy too.

Sub's seem to be more than competent at what they were historically designed to do, provided they're upgraded and you design a scout version with radar. With 1 hunter squadron (10x radar equipped) set to "do not engage" and 9 killer squadrons you can keep a single ocean pretty clear of convoys, obviously more is better.

Originally posted by SpeedKiller.txt:

I tried subs again on my current run with the Ragnarok mod(you vs everyone) got a fleet with 200+ subs in 50 groups and it takes 1 DD with depth charges to kill all of them.

Don't know the mod but they'd probably die easily in groups of 4 in vanilla too, try 10's, may help, might not. Scout subs would probably help them to avoid that DD too.

How do you make scout subs?
Cruiser submarine with scout plane?
I never thought about attaching scouting submarines to the fleets.

[Wintermist]

Let's just say this here; I just the other day played New Zealand, and took out all of Japan's fleets with my subs alone. You just grind them down, and eventually they can't do anything. I set my subs to patrol and to attack on dangerous encounters, the step below always attack.

At the end of the game I had maybe 70 subs, but it was all I needed to dominate the seas. They will destroy a few ships at a time, and eventually get to the carriers too. I think I destroyed about 700 (not counting convoys) ships, and that was including something like 8 carriers.

Subs are all you need :D

[Barry Cabbage]

Originally posted by Lord Scrote:

Originally posted by velvetcrabman:

Oddly enough they can cross the Atlantic and seem happy too.

Sub's seem to be more than competent at what they were historically designed to do, provided they're upgraded and you design a scout version with radar. With 1 hunter squadron (10x radar equipped) set to "do not engage" and 9 killer squadrons you can keep a single ocean pretty clear of convoys, obviously more is better.



Don't know the mod but they'd probably die easily in groups of 4 in vanilla too, try 10's, may help, might not. Scout subs would probably help them to avoid that DD too.

How do you make scout subs?
Cruiser submarine with scout plane?
I never thought about attaching scouting submarines to the fleets.

Radar instead of snorkels.

[Viceroy Günther von Lichler]

Ah yes, of course.

[velvetcrabman]

Originally posted by Barry Cabbage:

as far as I'm aware recent Nerfs have seen subs made borderline incapable of inflicting damage to capital ships in fleets so at best you could prevent them from landing.

any way I cut it I cannot help but think it's worth more investing in a surface fleet to contest the waves rather than lurk from beneath.

For my money invest in both, use them for what they were originally intended, the end effect is crippling.

Did a Germany run last night and by 1941 was running 3 big surface fleets, a 100 destroyer convoy escort fleet (10 x 10DD) and 300 subs in 3 fleets. Here's the thing, the cheesey steal ship stuff meant I hardly built a surface ship. I possessed the Italian, Jugoslavian, Dutch, French empire, British Empire fleets by then. (Sealioned with own plus stolen Italian, Dutch and Jugoslavian fleets, super easy.) That many subs totally cripples the Japanese and American convoy efforts and are quite capable of locating, pinning and eventually destroying their battle fleets all on their own, but with surface assistance the synergy is incredible.

A thought on recon groups: I've tried one radar sub in a squadron, it seems to be way less effective than using a single group of 10 on patrol and set to "do not engage", if they're cruiser subs with planes and radar the effect multiplies hugely. Making destroyers all have radar and sonar with no gunnery control helps the effect along at a fleet level, especially if you make small dedicated squadrons on the same lines, 5DD each seems to work, and don't forget those huge range unarmed scout planes flying from land bases to mid ocean.

With smaller fleets recon is the key every time, I'm thinking if you went full RPG then 200 submarines (80-100 by 1940 would be target probably) and a high quality but not massive surface fleet to finish off enemies and enable seaborne invasions is probably the way to go. At the end of the day whatever works for yourself and the style you play has to be the right way to go.