why do planes have to be 100

[lathrix army]

i liked it better and much of my friend group liked it aswell so are there any mods that change this back to before?

[glythe]

Originally posted by lathrix army:

i liked it better and much of my friend group liked it aswell so are there any mods that change this back to before?

Can you tell me why you like it like that? Having everyone with the same plane wings makes way more sense.

[lathrix army]

i liked being able to have smaller wings for country's that couldnt have large amounts because now it always tells me i have a deficit instead of just having a smaller wing

[Včelí medvídek]

Because it is size of wings that always worked as intended and game was always balanced around since its release - so to make any changes in air combat to work this has to gonna happen.

Removing most exploits and mechanic flaws caused by different wing sizes, finally air work as should be + by streamline deployment and groups bring great convenience for player.

Sadly devs stoped half way - the best would be abandon wing size in current form completely and work with wings same way as with division with predefined amount of equipment/aircrafts adequate to % strenght/combat ability of air division with airfield having space for 2 wings, etc.

Anyway it still remain as very good change in this area.

As for mods, afaik they just use different fixed wing size if it suit better the mod setup.

[lathrix army]

Originally posted by Včelí medvídek:

Because it is size of wings that always worked as intended and game was always balanced around since its release - so to make any changes in air combat to work this has to gonna happen.

Removing most exploits and mechanic flaws caused by different wing sizes, finally air work as should be + by streamline deployment and groups bring great convenience for player.

Sadly devs stoped half way - the best would be abandon wing size in current form completely and work with wings same way as with division with predefined amount of equipment/aircrafts adequate to % strenght/combat ability of air division with airfield having space for 2 wings, etc.

Anyway it still remain as very good change in this area.

As for mods, afaik they just use different fixed wing size if it suit better the mod setup.

it was more fun for me and my friends to have the smaller air wings it felt like we had more control over the wing performance and we werent exploiting so i dont know how this changes much if its about how many planes there are

[Včelí medvídek]

Originally posted by lathrix army:

it was more fun for me and my friends to have the smaller air wings it felt like we had more control over the wing performance and we werent exploiting so i dont know how this changes much if its about how many planes there are

If you used smaller wing than 100 than only ACE bonus was already exploit, working proportionally giving up to 1000% bonus at wing size 10. (instead supposed 100% for wing size 100). And other way bomb wings size 200 focused on one division or ship dealt much bigger damge than intended to do. And so on.

Anyway work better with current system - there is nothing wrong work with understrength wings, also bombers no longer teleport around but you can intercept them on way. (hence possibly you may need control only one air zone they need to pass instead all they can reach, etc] Just focus on real objectives instead Idea you have to cover all tiles with pitiful air wings.

[lathrix army]

Originally posted by Včelí medvídek:

Originally posted by lathrix army:

it was more fun for me and my friends to have the smaller air wings it felt like we had more control over the wing performance and we werent exploiting so i dont know how this changes much if its about how many planes there are

If you used smaller wing than 100 than only ACE bonus was already exploit, working proportionally giving up to 1000% bonus at wing size 10. (instead supposed 100% for wing size 100). And other way bomb wings size 200 focused on one division or ship dealt much bigger damge than intended to do. And so on.

Anyway work better with current system - there is nothing wrong work with understrength wings, also bombers no longer teleport around but you can intercept them on way. (hence possibly you may need control only one air zone they need to pass instead all they can reach, etc] Just focus on real objectives instead Idea you have to cover all tiles with pitiful air wings.

than wouldnt it have been the case to change how the bonuses apply rather than removing something some people liked having?

[glythe]

Originally posted by lathrix army:

it was more fun for me and my friends to have the smaller air wings it felt like we had more control over the wing performance and we werent exploiting so i dont know how this changes much if its about how many planes there are

If you look at the game mechanics there most definitely was something of an exploit when you made planes in groups of 10.

Originally posted by lathrix army:

than wouldnt it have been the case to change how the bonuses apply rather than removing something some people liked having?

When they made the change they used player metric data and realized most people were using size 100 wings.

Do you know how insane it would be to have 5000 planes and have to put them in groups of 10?

Look if you want to have planes in groups of 10 then play with aircraft carriers.

[lathrix army]

Originally posted by glythe:

Originally posted by lathrix army:

it was more fun for me and my friends to have the smaller air wings it felt like we had more control over the wing performance and we werent exploiting so i dont know how this changes much if its about how many planes there are

If you look at the game mechanics there most definitely was something of an exploit when you made planes in groups of 10.

Originally posted by lathrix army:

than wouldnt it have been the case to change how the bonuses apply rather than removing something some people liked having?

When they made the change they used player metric data and realized most people were using size 100 wings.

Do you know how insane it would be to have 5000 planes and have to put them in groups of 10?

Look if you want to have planes in groups of 10 then play with aircraft carriers.

im not saying that but i always enjoyed having smaller groups because im not too big on the airforce side of things im not playing meta but i always played with groups of 25-50 and it was enjoyable

[glythe]

Originally posted by lathrix army:

im not saying that but i always enjoyed having smaller groups because im not too big on the airforce side of things im not playing meta but i always played with groups of 25-50 and it was enjoyable

What was enjoyable about it?

Here's another problem with the old system:

Say two sides have 200 airplanes each. If FRA has two divisions of planes that are 100 each then they can defend two provinces. Now imange GER has 20 divisions of 10 airplanes.

FRA deploys their planes to defend two air corridors. Germany can send 190 planes into one of those zones and bomb the empty zone with 10 planes.

Small plane divisions allow for "whack a mole" situations where the enemy can just move their planes and be one step ahead of you. You can't do that anymore by the way because it takes time to build up air superiority now.

When they standardized the Air wing size they reworked air combat to remove a lot of the "exploit cheese" people were using.

---

In what way are you worse off because you now have to build wings of 100? Everyone has to play by exactly the same rules. The main difference is that minors are forced to play in the "deep end" of the pool with majors.

[lathrix army]

Originally posted by glythe:

Originally posted by lathrix army:

im not saying that but i always enjoyed having smaller groups because im not too big on the airforce side of things im not playing meta but i always played with groups of 25-50 and it was enjoyable

What was enjoyable about it?

Here's another problem with the old system:

Say two sides have 200 airplanes each. If FRA has two divisions of planes that are 100 each then they can defend two provinces. Now imange GER has 20 divisions of 10 airplanes.

FRA deploys their planes to defend two air corridors. Germany can send 190 planes into one of those zones and bomb the empty zone with 10 planes.

Small plane divisions allow for "whack a mole" situations where the enemy can just move their planes and be one step ahead of you. You can't do that anymore by the way because it takes time to build up air superiority now.

When they standardized the Air wing size they reworked air combat to remove a lot of the "exploit cheese" people were using.

---

In what way are you worse off because you now have to build wings of 100? Everyone has to play by exactly the same rules. The main difference is that minors are forced to play in the "deep end" of the pool with majors.

if you were in one of those situations its your fault though spreading out your forces is what made it nice now i cant do it and spread them around because they all get assigned to one wing

[glythe]

Originally posted by lathrix army:

if you were in one of those situations its your fault though spreading out your forces is what made it nice now i cant do it and spread them around because they all get assigned to one wing

So basically you wanted to exploit the mechanics. You wanted to beat 200 planes with 50 planes and abuse the air corridor system.

[lathrix army]

Originally posted by glythe:

Originally posted by lathrix army:

if you were in one of those situations its your fault though spreading out your forces is what made it nice now i cant do it and spread them around because they all get assigned to one wing

So basically you wanted to exploit the mechanics. You wanted to beat 200 planes with 50 planes and abuse the air corridor system.

no im saying i liked being able to spread my air forces while having small amounts not winning but at least having power in the region

[Včelí medvídek]

Originally posted by lathrix army:

than wouldnt it have been the case to change how the bonuses apply rather than removing something some people liked having?

Imho not becuase the issue go too deep to system and is probably impossible to solve without throw whole combat system away and build again from scratch.

Look for example on bombers - ACE bonus ignored apparently there was always intention to not consider wing size, limiting the number of aicrafts that can participate in combat to combat width {or weight in case of ships) - so in theory it should not matter if there was 10x100 wing or 1x1000 or 100x10 as always eg. only 200 could participate in the said combat. Yet in praxis other factors came in - how the combat is calculated over time, how the damage is spread form one wing to multiple divisions and so on. So testers and players quickly found out that eg. 200 NAVs wing more likely sunk ships than 2x100 cus they always focus damage on one target in a real time so the intention that "wing size does not matter" was false.

Going from 100 to either side always created anomalies and unintended behaviour like this and because it was the default ACE bonus and most convenient to deploy most players used it as default anyway (basically every game of mine always started by deleting "historical" wings of size 24 and so on {nonsense in abstracted game where dozens of thousands eventually participate) and redeploy them again as per 100. So I am glad this chore is gone.

[glythe]

Originally posted by Včelí medvídek:

Imho not becuase the issue go too deep to system and is probably impossible to solve without throw whole combat system away and build again from scratch.

Look for example on bombers - ACE bonus ignored apparently there was always intention to not consider wing size..."wing size does not matter" was false.

Going from 100 to either side always created anomalies and unintended behaviour like this

Due to the way the finding aircraft mechanic was before it was something of an exploit to use small wings. They still attacked and did damage but were harder to find. This was a thing because even when you sent 1000-10000 Aircraft something like only 50-100 were able to participate in most battles (depending on how wide the active battle line). Obviously if you are fighting Germany vs Russia around Moscow you could use a lot with a huge wide line.

Also there were some severe problems with State Based AA and strategic Bombers.

https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Air_combat

I don't expect mose people to look at the section with the giant equation under : Sub-phase 1: State Anti-Air.

But if you do you will see this text line:
Small bomber wings and especially strategic bombers (having high air defense) will be frequently affected by the minimum-one loss.

Largely speaking small air groups was an exploit. But in the case of strategic bombers you probably lost one every day. That's not a big deal if you have 500 bombing the enemy and the AA guns get knocked out quickly. That's a problem if you have 50 planes and you only had 10 Strat/Tac bombers.

Originally posted by lathrix army:

no im saying i liked being able to spread my air forces while having small amounts not winning but at least having power in the region

What you liked doing was an exploit. You may not have realized that it was because it got results but it most definitely exploited the weakness of the AI and air corridor design before the system got changed.

If you are saying : I just liked making 50 wing plane wings then you can still do that if all you have is 50 planes.

Plane wing size got standardized so there were no unequal differences between player A and Player B in how they "format" their airforce. Overall this was a good change for the game.

It was similarly good to how Man the Guns said : Let's not let players "death stack" their navy to auto win battles anymore.