Naval Supremacy Means Nothing?

[Dillinius Sandar]

So I am constantly experiencing enemy nations planning naval invasions on me (italy) and in response, I send ships to bring my naval supremacy in the targeted naval sector to 80-90% in my favour. Regardless the enemy ends up doing the invasion anyway a few months later with my huge fleet that's patroling doing nothing about it. Can someone explain to me how this isn't a bug?

[Icevail]

If your fleet patrolling the sea region attacks something, you lose the supremacy effect for the duration of the battle over the region it brings to it, that means naval invasions can slip through, leave your big fleets for strike force stance if you want to guard against naval invasions against the allies without wasting oil on patrol mission, and naval bomb the living crap out of the allied naval forces of the sea region instead to reduce their naval strength with small cost, but if you insist on patrolling the ocean, have a sub fleet or two to run convoy raiding on its side to catch those naval invasion convoys once you patrolling fleet engages in battle and is too distracted to provide naval supremacy.

[glythe]

Originally posted by Dillinius Sandar:

Can someone explain to me how this isn't a bug?

Pradox made EU4 and HOi4. For both games the AI has limits of things they said - the AI won't have to consider this.

For EU4 the AI just didn't have attrition at sea. That meant it could explore the new world without worrying about going back to port.

I am 99% sure they said the AI does not have to worry about Naval supremacy for invasions with HoI4.


With those things said it is important to note that at some point the devs took away the AI's attrition at sea immunity away from the AI because they realized it was an insane advantage.

They may or may not have reversed the AI's ability to ignore naval supremacy for invasions when MtG came out.


I can say with certainty that I have played games where I completely removed an enemy's navy and have complete control of the sea only to find a naval invasion land on my shores.

[Crazed Possum]

Go with the naval strike and have another fleet patrolling definitely use subs and above all else put fighters and naval bombers in your sea zones and maul them.

[Dillinius Sandar]

So it's either the AI does in fact ignore supremacy to a degree or my ships happen to be in battle so therefore I lose the supremacy they were giving allowing just enough time for the AI to launch their naval invasion. Ok, thanks for the replies

[Gershu]

Originally posted by Dillinius Sandar:

So I am constantly experiencing enemy nations planning naval invasions on me (italy) and in response, I send ships to bring my naval supremacy in the targeted naval sector to 80-90% in my favour. Regardless the enemy ends up doing the invasion anyway a few months later with my huge fleet that's patroling doing nothing about it. Can someone explain to me how this isn't a bug?

As a personal experience I found naval/tactical bombers to very efficient towards enemy navies. The more advanced the aircraft, with a good air doctrine, makes wonders. Ships in particular take a lot of time and resources for basically not much. If it's a tactical bomber, it can be repurposed fast and at a very low cost (compared to ships), to perform CAS, strategic and/or naval bombing, etc.

I personally think that the ship system is somehow broken and not really worth it. Strat bombing on enemy ports and airport cripple the enemy for land armies to move around like gangsters.

[Včelí medvídek]

Originally posted by Dillinius Sandar:

So it's either the AI does in fact ignore supremacy to a degree or my ships happen to be in battle so therefore I lose the supremacy they were giving allowing just enough time for the AI to launch their naval invasion. Ok, thanks for the replies

I think it was teseted various ways and AI never cheats or use different rules. It just have invasion at hand and can use even the slightest brief moment (not noticable by human player) where it get the edge to launch the invasion.

[Aluvard]

Originally posted by glythe:

Originally posted by Dillinius Sandar:

Can someone explain to me how this isn't a bug?

Pradox made EU4 and HOi4. For both games the AI has limits of things they said - the AI won't have to consider this.

For EU4 the AI just didn't have attrition at sea. That meant it could explore the new world without worrying about going back to port.

I am 99% sure they said the AI does not have to worry about Naval supremacy for invasions with HoI4.


With those things said it is important to note that at some point the devs took away the AI's attrition at sea immunity away from the AI because they realized it was an insane advantage.

They may or may not have reversed the AI's ability to ignore naval supremacy for invasions when MtG came out.


I can say with certainty that I have played games where I completely removed an enemy's navy and have complete control of the sea only to find a naval invasion land on my shores.

Not exactly, AI is analysing all the time if it has achieved naval supremacy. Even if it's only for split second it will be enough for invasion. Also AI sometimes stuck such forces on permanent wait mode for such window.

[glythe]

Originally posted by Aluvard:

Not exactly, AI is analysing all the time if it has achieved naval supremacy. Even if it's only for split second it will be enough for invasion. Also AI sometimes stuck such forces on permanent wait mode for such window.

Tell me then with your acumen how The USA landed on the shores of France in a game I had quite some time ago.

I was playing Germany. France was conquered and Vichy was formed. Italy was doing their thing. England had basically no ships because I had bombed their navy. The Netherlands did not exist because I took them before the war started.

The goal of that game was to use "Plan Z". That of course means building a large navy. What really bothered me about this particular game was that the Japanese Navy through luck or circumstance had completely demolished the USA navy. The Giant awoke early actually and fought Japan in their own war but were unable to invade the USA.

What nation had a navy that stopped the interruption of my ships for even one split second?

Denmark, Norway Finland and Sweden could not have been responsible.
Belgium , England, France and the USA had no ships.

So you tell me who was able to gain naval supremacy. I controlled both the sea lanes and air corridors completely.

The only viable explanation in that game was : Cheating AI.

[Včelí medvídek]

Originally posted by glythe:

The only viable explanation in that game was : Cheating AI.

No, Vanilla Ai does not cheat. It was confirmed both by game devs and expereinced modders like BICE devs, eg.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/does-the-ai-send-naval-invasions-without-even-having-naval-supremacy.1508815/post-28051618

If your admiral cover more sea zones it can easily happen one is uncovered for one game hour which is enough for trigger the invasion. Possible th3re cna be other explantion to your experience too.

[Rager_Beater]

Originally posted by Včelí medvídek:

Originally posted by glythe:

The only viable explanation in that game was : Cheating AI.

No, Vanilla Ai does not cheat. It was confirmed both by game devs and expereinced modders like BICE devs, eg.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/does-the-ai-send-naval-invasions-without-even-having-naval-supremacy.1508815/post-28051618

If your admiral cover more sea zones it can easily happen one is uncovered for one game hour which is enough for trigger the invasion. Possible th3re cna be other explantion to your experience too.

thats categorically false. the AI does have cheats.

[Včelí medvídek]

Originally posted by Rager_Beater:

thats categorically false. the AI does have cheats.

I am sure you will provide reliable source for such claim.

[Xcorps]

Originally posted by Včelí medvídek:

Originally posted by Dillinius Sandar:

So it's either the AI does in fact ignore supremacy to a degree or my ships happen to be in battle so therefore I lose the supremacy they were giving allowing just enough time for the AI to launch their naval invasion. Ok, thanks for the replies

I think it was teseted various ways and AI never cheats or use different rules. It just have invasion at hand and can use even the slightest brief moment (not noticable by human player) where it get the edge to launch the invasion.

The player can take advantage of this as well. If you click the "launch mission" button while you don't have naval supremacy, your invasion forces begin waiting for naval supremacy to reach the required amount. The split second this happens, your invasion launches. It also happens this way with planning. If you have a 40 day planning wait, you can activate the mission and it will fire when you reach 40.

[glythe]

Originally posted by Včelí medvídek:

If your admiral cover more sea zones it can easily happen one is uncovered for one game hour which is enough for trigger the invasion. Possible th3re cna be other explantion to your experience too.

That was not the case. Both the UK navy and AIrforce were completely decimated. There was nothing interrupting my ships from doing *anything* in the sea zones in question for a single hour. Likewise the American air assets were busy with Japan but their fleet had been completely destroyed.


When we look back at EU4 we can see there is a page that covers the AI limitations. There is no such page for HoI4.

I did find a thread explaining that there was a bug in earlier days where the AI could naval invade ignoring supremacy.

This was not some minor bug as apparently it happened very often. Most people just presumed this was a feature.


I have an excellent understanding of this game's mechanics. The enemy I was fighting was completely broken and there was no possibility that my ships in the sea zone in question were interrupted.

[pjd110]

I've noticed that the naval invasions slip by if my Strike Force fleet goes in to repair status. This suspends the Strike force for the duration of the repairs and removes its value from Naval Supremacy calculations.

The AI does some things similar to players. It sets up the invasion and activates it. It will then go off when your naval supremacy dips below 50% even is a short time. You can do the same.

They should make it that all available ships move to intercept naval invasions.

[Včelí medvídek]

Originally posted by glythe:

I have an excellent understanding of this game's mechanics. The enemy I was fighting was completely broken and there was no possibility that my ships in the sea zone in question were interrupted.

Well than you must know how easily this "can" happen and all that AI need is literally single DD.

Otherwise bugs are of course explanation for some rare cases where things happens outside the mechanic.


I can say from my ~3k hours experience I am quite reliable able keep myself protected from invasions and if it occur I can in most cases identify reason (or more precisely I am aware in advance due seeing the status of my fleets)