HOI4 Apologists

[reynolds1948]

Going back and forth from here to the PDX forum you can see dozens and dozens
of posts on how bad the AI is and how badly the game is broken but there appear to
be so many folks who are such fanboys of PDX they insist the game is the finest
WW2 Grand Strategy game ever created and works fine but for a 'few tweaks' to fix
some issues (like armies of 100 divisions dancing around Africa or 100 plus divisions
sitting in Madagascar). I have watched this game progress since its announcement
and not buying it and playing modded HOI3 was the best decision I could have made.

I just cannot believe some of the fanboys there including some posters who were on
HOI3 and mods of that game who insist now HOI4 is the greatest thing since mankind
stood upright. Flooding PDX with compliments on such a piece of garbage is pretty
darn sickening. People think PDX includes all its gamers as friends and fellow designers
but that is far from the truth. They will continue to spew out nonsense ungames like
Stellaris and HOI4 until people vote with their wallet not to commit so such poorly designed games. This is of course my O2 but I don't need to by an Edsel to know its a terrible car...

I don't post this because I hate PDX. I want them to do their best for games but this
comes in even under the worst of them...

[reynolds1948]

Its not that. Its those who attack those who complain or raise issues. How many times I have seen people say on the boards the game is perfect and plays perfect and why are you tying to attack the company. That is not whats happening. Bringing up issues that effect game play should help the company correct them. When the issues are massive, such as in HOI4, and are obvious the people who post apolgies for Paradox and defend poor game design and play, are not helping PDX they are actually making it worse is my view (and my opinion). If you love the game then this post is not for you. It is an opinion, that is all. Feel free to disagree with it. I have no power to change anything. All I can do is speak.

[crazy rocker]

the game is far from being historical. British raj shouldnt exist. It was part of the british empire and provided most of the british armies troops through the war. Why cant britain and france have mech troops from 1937 like they did in real life?. IE The British army had fully mechanised armoured divs in france in 1939. A brit armoured div was made up of 2 tank brigades and a mech inf brigade as support in bren carriers or ram kangeroos which were fully tracked armoured cars to carry the inf to keep up with the tanks. Another flaw is having the matilda as a light tank when it was a heavy tank. The vickers IV was the light tank the brits used in the early part of the war and it was far suppior to anything the germans had till the panther and tiger tanks came along. If games used the real stats of tnks then Germany wouldnt last 5 mins as they were heavily outumberd and out gunned by france alone let alone the UK. HOI 4 seems to be way out on troops u can make. Some countires just didnt have enough ppl in them to have the amount of divs they make. Seems the AI can make endless amounts of divs and planes way beyong the popualtion of the country. IE new zealand making 200 divs which was inpossible as they only had enough ppl to field and support about 5 divs during the entire war. About 80% of the british army was from India. But cause india has been taken away from the UK they cant get enough pops to make the divs needed if u play as UK. Ur lucky if u can make 2 divs before the war starts cause ur manpower run out. Played as SU a few times. same thing manpower runs out before u get 150 divs. But the AI seems to have a never ending supply of manpower and builds way more divs than historicly they could. HOI4 is better than HOI3 was when that 1st came out. They never did fix the bugs in that. They just bought out expansions to add more to the game which u had to pay for that were nothing more than patches really and even then it still didnt fix most of the bugs but usualy added even more bugs. Out of the series i think HOI2 is the best. It worked and had free patches to fix bugs and errors. Ive got the hard copy of HOI3 and it doesnt need steam to run neither do any of the expansions for it. Didnt want HOI4 to be on steam as i prefer hard copies of games that dont need an internet connection or 3rd party clients to play them as i see that as a rip off as u end up having to pay a lot more for a game. The high cost of HOI4 has nothing to do with PDX its steam wanting its cut. Gamestop and gamersgate were a lot cheaper than steam for games and u didnt have to have steam to run them. But seems now u cant buy any decent games without having to use steam. Even HOI3 can now only be played through steam unless u have the older hard copy of it. tried to get the expansions back on my PC for HOI3 which at the time when i bought them didnt need steam. But now if i want them i have to pay steam and use steam to get them back again. So basicly a game ive already bought and paid for i know have to pay for again if i want to play it. From what ive seen in HOI4 so far its basicly the same as Vicky 2 with the focus tree. It takes the fun out of the game cause u have to justify a war before u can go to war and that gives the AI a warning ur coming for them. So they build up their army and defences and become way stronger than they should. UK garnutteing every country very early on in the game. I did the winter war with finland only for the UK to DOW the SU. Japan Joining germany to steam roller russia as russia cant get enough divs to defend on 2 fronts. played as germany and couldnt justfy againsty more than 1 country or the allies would jump in way to early. The spanish civil war gives enough WT for the UK to garuntee everyone else before germany is even close to defending itself. When u do danzig a war focus Poland get hundreds of divs from france UK and the USA as volunteers making it very hard to beat them and usuly chews up ur manpower so u havnt got enough manpower or equipment to even beat denmark. Im finding the AI way to strong. It moves troops around to fast. It even teleports troops around. IE my volunteers in spain get surrounded and wiped out due to the AI teleporting divs from 1 part of the country to another as soon as u breakthrough anywhere and they just happen to appear in the prov behind u cutting u off from supplies. HOI4 isnt even close to being historical. If it was Japan wouldnt DOW russia as soon as germany did. In the real war japan never did DOW russia as they had a non agression pact in place. It wasnt till japan was already beaten when russia DOW Japan. But in HOI4 japan steam rollers russia cause russia cant supply enough troops in the far east to hold back the ♥♥♥♥. On 1 front the russians were holding back the germans and pushing them back without losing any ground to the at all and were closing in on Berlin but the ♥♥♥♥ got to moscow before russia could take berlin. Russia was out of the war in 6 months due to japan hitting russia in the back. No way can russia make enough divs to cover the front from tanu tuva to vladivostock as supply them as well as having enough divs for the german front. Even making divs as fast as i could i only had 150 divs by 1941 to cover both fronts. Mainly due to manpower running out after getting 100 divs made. No matter what country i play manpower runs out long before i have enough divs to beat anyone as the AI has a never ending manpower supply. heck even tiny denmark had 500 divs by 1939. Plus every game ive played so far Germany has DOW switzerland. Ive never seen pearl harbour happen even when playing the USA i just couldnt get pearl harbour to happen to get them into the war. So ended up just sitting there twiddling my thumps as i couldnt justify against anyone and no one wanted to go to war with the USA. The only way to get the USA into a war is by going facist and doing plan red focus. But dont see why u have to be facist to do plan red as it was a real plan thought up by FDR while running for president for the 1st time. he planned a war against the UK to annex canada and wanted to join the axis. But the ppl of the USA wouldnt go along with that.

[Swesal]

Messaggio originale di reynolds1948:

I have enough expierence in computer and board games to know what works and what does not. The idea that you must own something to truely know it is faulty logic at best. People research cars, planes, games, trains. If your expierenced in car, plane, game, or train building then you can deduce from what you learn what is good and what makes a great turkey sandwich.

The problem is, someone playing games their whole life doesn't make them a good armchair game dev., and what the facts on the ground are telling them(PDX) is that what they did in HoI4 has worked. You don't like it, despite your manhours into it, that is fine, and they know they will never please everyone. What they do know is they are getting respectable reviews, and surprisingly beating some big names like 'DOOM', and 'The Division', and their other recent title 'Strellus' in concurrent users.

Part of the reason you are defending yourself so much is you(and me) are part of a small minority, and you may very well only want the best for the game, but you are arguing from a weak position, because as far as everyone reading this is concered, you are just parroting what others have experienced. I'm actually not very happy with the game myself, but you make it really hard to even side with you because of what I just quoted. As far as I am concered your opinion matters far less then a 15 year old dude, with no past HoI experience, but with a hundred plus hours in HoI4 even if I disagree with him, and yes I have read the whole thread, I don't need your resume for the eighth time.

[Bondrewd Dawn]

Messaggio originale di reynolds1948:

Wow...how formal...

You have played HOI2 and 4. I have played HOI1-3 and did months of fighting and arguing for
a HOI4 that did not happen. One cannot get past the feeling (or the slim dagger i feel you have slipped into my back..lol) that your post is more of a question about me rather than my views on HOI4 tho very politely but Shakespeareingly presented...

I have enough expierence in computer and board games to know what works and what does not. The idea that you must own something to truely know it is faulty logic at best. People research cars, planes, games, trains. If your expierenced in car, plane, game, or train building then you can deduce from what you learn what is good and what makes a great turkey sandwich.

I waited, like you and everybody else for HOI4 to be released and period of what 2 years or less, I can't recall. I also waited for HOI2 and HOI3 to be released and Arsenal of Democracy based off 2. Over the preceding years I have watched the staff at PDX grow in expierence and in the quality of their work. Each HOI was a vast improvement on the previous (did you know you could fly B17s off a carrier in HOI1?)

It is not a question of dislike or distain or dissing or any of that stuff. Its a question PDX has done vastly better each time, learning from mistakes in previous versions. Now, for who knows what reason, they have gone back to a braindead AI that does really stuuupid stuff. Yes HOI3 Vanilla was crap and SemperFi and For the Motherrland addons improved it marginally but TFH almost....almost...capped this series as a timeless classic strategy game. In comparison, litteraly, HOI1 was the grandfather, stately but a bit dim, HOI2 was father, stern but fair, HOI3 was your big brother that you admired so. HOI4 is a hooker in a neon dress under a streetlamp. (and I mean that literally it looks like a UGLY hooker in a neon dress) but that is my O2.

I am not obsessed but upset that people that can do such great work and have improved over the years released a neon hooker.....which might explain my being upset. I expected more from PDX and see less. Many good ideas but really BADLY implemented.

I am really curious why HOI3 has been squished off the PDX forum into a tiny slot there while HOI1 and 2 still show as classic games. They really appear they want to hide it and disown it as if they are ashamed someone will compare it to HOI4...the neon hooker....
One would think that there was a shakeup in PDX and those who worked on HOI3 were demoted or pushed over to work on another member of the genus Meleagris (Turkey) which is Stellaris which I did purchase and stopped playing after less than 2 weeks it being mindless and repetitive like throwing the same basketball shot from the same place over and over....

I do love complexity but I don't play chess which i find tooo...two dimensional and it has no random factor. Now to peel away you attaching me to some jibbering fanatic obessing away with Paradox and putting this in perspective lets just say I am upset my friends at Paradox
(and I do consider anybody there friends...except for Darkrenown....but thats another story.
and YES DARKRENOWN THE PANTHER IS BETTER!)...ahem...where was I? Oh yes,
That my friends at Paradox not only dropped the ball, they stepped on it, stabbed it, and ran a Tiger tank over it. It is just bad. So many good ideas presented like a kindergarden kids dried macaroni wall display. I get mad when folks who do such good work do such bad work.

Now, if folks love playing HOI4 for ANY reason, I am delighted for them. Really, I hope they have many hours of fun and stimulation from this program. It its true it is not 'up to my standards' which are that of a serious, deep, WW2 simulation. It is a somewhat detailed WW2 game and therein is the difference. Axis and Allies or Risk are games and fun for those who play them but HOI has always been about the detail and the complexity which with proper planning and programming could have worked the complexity into the program to help the player while still having the detail. Again, this is magnificent but it is NOT war...

Whew....I spend more time defending myself than gaming...Tho I spend alot of time posting over on CBS news opinions...

If I said 70s computer games I may have meant board games but there were some I had from that time (8088) computer then more IBM clones and pre-mouse...

From my old collection (many now gone)
Pacific War, War in Russia, Great Naval Battles 1939-45, Imperium Galactium, North Atlantic '86, Second Front, Stellar Crusade, Western Front, Pirates, Sim City, Conflict in Vietnam, Crusade in Europe (a GEM!), Decision in the Desert, Seven Cities of Gold, Sword of the Samauri, Temple of Apshi, Starflight, Omnitrend Univere (and its 10 pound rule book) and some I did not own like Computer Chess, Lords of Conquest, and Empire.

Now you can say the above only show part of the globe and are not an 'all encompasing game of the world of ww2" like HOI but you can change the Graphics of HOI, make areas into acres or sectors, change tanks into Elvish Cavalry and French Infantry into Orcs (might actually be fun) and you have a different looking game based on the same engine. Alot like action games where they just change the skins and the theme but it still just a darn shootemup.

Finally (for those still awake) HOI4 could have been and should have been so much better. Just by looking at the previous games and the strides PDX has made it is unexplainable why they did not. You own and are playing (and I can assume having fun) but you are playing war with a blue sock not the work they could have offered you. That they did this to the games community upsets me and should others. I don't expect a Crusade but I hope others will let PDX know they have, sadly, failed. There is little to be proud of here. I'm going to rest my poor tacky tacky fingers on the keyboard now.....

Goodness, that was an even better reply then I was expecting and I thank you for it. (Sorry for the late reply btw, I was busy with some other stuff).

The first thing I must address is the whole improvment aspect of this discussion. (I had ment to put this in my original post but it must have sliped my mind.) I wanted to say that, from my perspective (from having played HOI2 and HOI4) HOI4 seemed like a massive improvement in both UI and general mechanics over HOI2, and it seemed less intensive and micromanagy then HOI3 (although I haven't played it and am basing this opinion on videos alone). So from my (limited) perspective the game was a massive improvement. Many may feel this way aswell.

This is not to say I don't respect your opinion or to say that the game can't be improved (A.I.) but it is only to explain why so many "apologists" have not taken your side on the issue. You seem to feel that the HOI community should have fought more to ensure the game came out perfectly, and I was simply explaining to you as a person, why this did not happen.

Also none of my post was meant in any why to give offence and if it had I am sorry (perhaps "obsessed" was too strong a word, "opinionated" mabey?) I felt that you were an intellegent commenter who only attacked others when he himself had been attacked, and I was by no means attacking your character. I was simply trying to better understand your postion from the things you had wrote previously. I am also not trying to sway your opinion on wether or not it was a bad game or not (because I know it isn't happening) you just stated that you were upset with the way things had gone and I was attempting to (console?) explain why you shouldn't feel so down about it.

I truely appreciate the fact that you went to such lengths to defend what you felt was the best way to handle the game. While many might look upon this entire disscusion and sneer; "but it's just a game? Why spend so much time talking about it?" I believe that this discussion proves you and (Most) other commenters care not only about their stratagey games but for the entire industry as a whole, and that is noble not matter what anyone says. while there have been many dissaggrements, those disaggrements were born of a deep love for one of the most niche markets in the the gaming industry. For that I thank you and all other commenters on this disscussion.

P.S. thanks for the list of games I wrote down those I did not recognize and I will be sure to check them out :)

P.P.S. It really tickled my inner writer whan you said my post was Shakespeareingly presented ;)

[BlackSmoke 🏴‍☠]

Every travel starts with a first single step...

PDX did a great journey through the years bringing us a great serie of games, the HoI series. They were adding contents and improving mechanics... They commited mistakes, they fixed wrong things, but they were step after step advancing in one direction. Now, with HoI4 they simply turned 180º backtracking over their previous steps. This is not to improve a game, this is called involution or regression.

To Swesal (#139):

When Reynolds talks about his own experience he it's talking about something that was happening in 2002 (the launch of first HoI1). Obviously as you were talking about 15 years old dudes, I'll talk about it too... any 15 years old dude around 2002 it was only a 1 year old baby absolutely not even thinking about playing this kind of games, 1 year old babies are too busy sleeping and drinking milk. 15 years old dudes haven't walked the same travel as many of us did with our dear PDX, 15 old years dudes haven't experienced in first person the evolution of the series, first HoI1 launch, then HoI2, then HoI3 and finally HoI4. Every single launch of a HoI game was followed with expectation, loving the improvements and hating their bugs and inbalances. This happened over the last 14 years, from 2002 to 2016. We were loving every single HoI launch and loving PDX for bringing us jewels that couldn't be found in any other place. HoI series used to be unparalleled until HoI4.

In my case I got a DVD copy of HoI 1, then HoI2 and then HoI3 in a shop. Also bougth second copies from Gamersgate, and finally third copies from Steam. It has been a long journey going along with PDX to finally get a dissapointing experience like HoI4. If most of you (apologists) have not shared the same experience, it's better for you to shut up than talking about what you don't know. What we are talking about it's totally legit.

Now PDX clearly has turned 180º. They want open the market to much more people, wich is totally legit too. But they have commited a kind of treason to those who were following this series of games through the last 14 years.

They could have chosen another option:

- Create a parrallel line of games to introduce new people to the genre

If 15 years old dudes are trying to shut up our mouths and our totally legit claims, they are wrong. And in my concrete case, they are crashing against a concrete wall.

If someone is trying to denigrate our opinions they will find an intense and relentless opposition (in my case will be 100% true). I hate mainstreams, I hate fashions, and I hate tendences, so I hate the new path that PDX is taking with their new HoI4. Again totally legit.

To DeepBlue (#132):

"This mindset, however, is not the case with most if not even a fraction of players out there. most are simply looking for a fun some-what accurate ww2 game with enough complexity to be tactical, but not enough complexity so that you don't know whats going on."

You can try this: "Gary Grigsby's World at War: A World Divided"

Could be perfect for most of you...

[BlackSmoke 🏴‍☠]

HoI4 has turned in a kind of big Risk. This is my opinion based on my own experience.

There are people who don't like micromanagement. There are people who loves micromanagement.

For people hating micromanagement... No one forces to you to buy this series of titles with a gun pointing to your heads. Simply stay away. As far as possible.

For people who loves micromanagement, Hey! PDX we are thinking you have done a great mistake with this new HoI4. I think about this as a treason, yes as drastic to be called in this way.

Clear as water, isn't it? Yes, of course (it was a rhetorical question).

[reynolds1948]

fellas remember it is just my opinion. That personal stuff about myself got into it so much is that they just did thru the give and take of information in replys. That some folks think i reply too much is that i think every question deserves an answer. An opinion is just that something based upon your own personal knowledge and experience no matter how much or how little you know about anything. Right, wrong, in the middle, I just tried to explain it the best i could.

[[PHNX]Kordarus]

I'm thinking about buying this game, so following your advice i should stay away of this?

[BlackSmoke 🏴‍☠]

Messaggio originale di PHNXKordarus:

I'm thinking about buying this game, so following your advice i should stay away of this?

No, even being a kind of big risk it's a great game. Just not as expected by old experienced players. It's totally unrealistic and easier than previous titles, with a dumb AI, but perfect for new people to introduce to the genre (just as PDX planned and wanted).

[[PHNX]Kordarus]

Messaggio originale di BlackSmoke:

Messaggio originale di PHNXKordarus:

I'm thinking about buying this game, so following your advice i should stay away of this?

No, even being a kind of big risk it's a great game. Just not as expected by old experienced players. It's totally unrealistic and easier than previous titles, with a dumb AI, but perfect for new people to introduce to the genre (just as PDX planned and wanted).

Well i'm a HoI veteran, so i guess i will keep playing my HoI 3 instead...

Thank you for the answer.

[reynolds1948]

I won't say one way or the other. Look at their forum and look at what the game covers and does and what you want a game to do and be. I wish you well and have fun!

[BlackSmoke 🏴‍☠]

To (#143): I share your opinion syllable by syllable.

[BlackSmoke 🏴‍☠]

Messaggio originale di PHNXKordarus:

Messaggio originale di BlackSmoke:

No, even being a kind of big risk it's a great game. Just not as expected by old experienced players. It's totally unrealistic and easier than previous titles, with a dumb AI, but perfect for new people to introduce to the genre (just as PDX planned and wanted).

Well i'm a HoI veteran, so i guess i will keep playing my HoI 3 instead...

Thank you for the answer.

Sincerely I consider as not fair to be giving this kind of message to you. I consider that you should be testing by yourself this game. As you can see I have played it for more than 1,000 hours and now I'm not feeling comfortably for you not trying the same experience.

Please go and test it, perhaps could be different for you. I played the game and enjoyed it. It's a different experience, and ruined my expectations, but even so I enjoyed it. I know it seems contradictory but I needed a new launch of HoI like a drug, as I have been waiting for years for it to come to the market.

[Some Guy 84]

Darkest Hour > HOI3 and HOI4

All I wanted was Darkest Hour 2 with modern graphics, new features, new UI, new events and decisions, and some of the HOI4 features like national focuses and other things

Instead I watched as HOI4 turned out to be totally broken and luckily I've never even bought it

[Some Guy 84]

I also wanted the raw amount of provinces from HOI3 for maximum war planning and action
Also wanted Antartica to exist