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Depending on country, situation for a non pre-existing naval power (think UK, USA, Japan), Subs & Destroyers are a good bet. Both build really fast (for ships) and are effective in their roles. As Germany I pretty much park my fleet and rely on subs and naval bombers.
From what I have seen (from Denmark actually) the Sub + Destroyer combo can be quite powerful. Don't expect them to beet a fleet of carriers & battleships but they can do surprsingly well for their cost. If you add in your own carrier or two and I think thats quite decent as long as you are not facing the full might of the American or UK Navy :)
The biggest "issue" with making a guide is I am not certain how accurate this is. While some things I am pretty sure about via testing, there are still some unknowns I was hoping other people might chime in with, especially regarding
1.) Fleet Composition - Ship Types and How many (I will continue to test this myself though)
2.) Light Cruisers - are they worth the considerable expense?
I just want to make sure I don't provide wrong information if I put it in a guide.
Light cruisers sank more ships then destroyers,heavy cruisers and carriers combined. So either it is crappy statistics and only sinking shots are irrelevant since others did all the real work and got health of enemy ships low enough for light cruisers to chase those on retreat but light cruisers are good at finishing, or light cruisers are beasts with carrier doctrine.
Thats interesting, it could be that that because they are faster than proper capital ships and have more punch than a destroyer it puts them into a prime position to finish of heavily damaged fleeing enemies.
Adding that to OP.
And effectivity depends a lot on if you fight till death or retreat.
Of course subs will lose as soon as they are seen and if they don't retreat.
Mainly based on history they were used as recon and if possible taking shots at the larger ships. I am not 100% certain how this works in HOIV but from other battles they do engage and do dmg while the rest of the fleet gets into position. That being said I think you can safely remove them, I just like to have them rather than not.
Playing as a minor with harbor acces
Creatings small fleets is the only way to go, as BB and CV's take far to long and cost far to much(untill ofc. you get more power)
So i useally start of with;
- 4x Sub fleets, 20 per fleet if they are Tier I, 15 for Tier 2, 10 for Tier 3&4
- 2x Light fleets of 5Destroyers and 2 light cruisers each.
If there is no threat of war on me, i might venture in putting a Heavy Cruiser into the light fleet.
If i have no danger of war and the techs unlocked, resources and buildings free for, i just go for CV's.
i put 1CV per light fleet(so that becomes)
- Light fleet, 5Destroyers, 2Light Cruisers, 1 Heavy Cruiser, 1 CV.
On board of the CV i place 55% Fighter planes(FP), 45% naval bombers(NB).
Create a few extra sub's (3/4) and put them in my light fleets as well.
So then we get a light fleet of; 3Subs, 5Destroyers, 2light cruisers, 1Heavy Cruiser, 1CV(55%FP/45%NB).
useally i see the fleet then as a main battlefleet, and create aditional light fleets again.
Playing as a major
Very different in naval build up.
- Sub hunters;
7Destroyers + 1 Battlecruiser.
Destroyers will go for the Subs, the Battlecruiser to give the fleet more bang for its buck, should it encounter a bigger fleet of surface ships.
- Raiders;
20 to 30Sub's (30 when Germany, 20 as Allies)
- Escorts
10Destroyers, 10Light Cruisers, 5Heavy cruisers,
- Mid-Range Attack Fleet
5Heavy Cruisers, 3Battle Cruisers, 2BB's
- Long-Range Attack Fleet
5Battle Cruisers, 3BB's 1CV(55%FP/45%NB)
- Main Battle fleet
5Destroyers, 5Light cruisers, 4Battle Cruisers, 2CV's(75%FP/25%NB), 2CV's (40%FP/60%NB).
I tent to stay off Battleboats for my main fleets, as they are sooooooo useless VS other CV's.
Getting a big air fight on the navy seems a really good way, and not make me waste a couple years building and wasting resources on something that will sink with the first torpedo going into it from a enemy NB.
With my Naval XP i create new CV models with a bigger flight deck and heavier armor(+1 each per model).
With my Air XP i create new FP and NB models for the CV's with increased range and Attack.
EDIT;
I also go in the Doctrine for what i plan for my fleets,
As german more into the Wolfpacks, To get massive stacking bonuses for subs.
As Allies either Fleet in being or floating airbase.
as minor(almost always)Fleet in being, unless i have some major expansion plans, then its Floating airbase.
How do your fleets perform in combat?
I hear you about CV's vs BB's however if you have CV's in your fleet to defend against enemy CV's, you can do some serious dmg (the Tier II Super BB's are insane). Ofc they are massivly expensive and more of a luxurious plaything :D. Might make a guide and add your composition as well.
Question though, your long range fleets do not have screening ships? How do you find this works in practise?
And i find it has more to do with the Doctrine's i'm using for my naval warfare then the actual ships(as long as i match the tier).
When playing as Germany i just focus Sub's, sub's, sub's and more sub's.
I know i cannot defeat the British, French and (later) USA fleets by building capital ships.
So i create a ton of fleets only using sub's (30 each).
They are mainly set for convoy raiding around the British Isle's South France and the Waters infront of Africa near Gibraltar.
Then more fleets go Mid-atlantic and they just do their job
If i over-produced i send some sub's to japan(make their port the home port of my fleet) and let them raid around indonesia/australia.
At this stage, i just paralize the allies as they got no transport ships left anymore.(no trade, no naval movement of troops, no lend leases, no Dunquerike retreat etc).
I lose sub's over time...but up to 42/43 the Allies really take a big hit from my subs. without me losing a single sub.
On avarage the pack of 30 sub's have different ratio's...if they get a big convoy about 60/70% goes down.
If they get a small convoy its most often 100%.
If they encounter screens(due to the high level docterines) they mostly stay undected. and manage to kill off 30% of the screens in the fleet.
after 43 i take more frequant hits.(mainly because my focus has shifted to land war at this stage) and the sub models and fleet docterines are going out of date. when that happens the sub fleets are useless and will lose ships on a daily base(sometimes as high as 50% of my fleet per battle).
In the games where i invaded the UK and got them out of the war(and thus have a single front with USSR) my ships get better updated and more produced, that any loses are not noticeable(als they are just very few).
To deal with the French and UK Navy i just create Naval Bombers, and let them provide cover for my sub's. and useally their fleets don't last a year after i start that campaign.
Playing as Allies(only did USA so Far). i chuck out all BB's into 1 Task force. and start to restructure the USnavy
Most often i find that no matter what doctrine, composition(less or more screens, CV's or not, CV composition of flight deck etc) the BB's are if not the First, the 2nd to go down.
I do agree that they can deal a ton of damage before going down, but in most cases allong with the Battlecruisers they are the first to go down.(makes sence, most navies aimed to get rid of Capital ships first, so they could have their Capitals VS just screens).
The results are so varrious...it's hard to tell.
One fleet did supper VS a Japanese Fleet, the other very badly,..but when i looked at the battle i saw that over 150 allied ships had joined the battle(causing a massive stacking buff on my fleet due to overcrowding of naval and airspace).
And yes, i don't use screens in my long range, as they will reduce the range of operations.
Instead(lets use the Atlantic as example here)
I place 4 fleets in the ocean(around the Mid-Atlantic Gap) Each fleet will get 1 sector assigned to 'Hunt and Kill' I then place my 1(or) 2 Main Battle fleets(who have screens and CV's) to cover the 4fleets going on hunt and kill. So each Main Battle Fleet, Covers 2 Long-Range Fleets. i have to have allied ports(ports closer by) for this tactic VS Europe. but thats where the Brits come in handy(as well as spain/porugal who i always help to stay a democratic nation and friendly with acces to me).
The fleets themself don't do to badly...every once in a while(maybe 2times a year) i lose a BB or BC due to the subs. but in general i take more down(due to screens and NB's on the CV's) then i lose.
Most of the time i am seeing that my ships cannot(or have a lot of trouble) finding the enemies subs. But the subs don't really like to attack either...(as in shoot a torpedo and give your position away, you get something like 250naval bombers on you).
But i designed around this concept for the dealing of Japan.
As BC's, BB's in a fleet are not really good Against subs. But the ♥♥♥♥(at least in my games) are not using to many subs, but a bucket load of surfice ships.
The BC's are strong and Fast enough to deal with any screens Japan will throw at me. The BB's blow everything up(they do take damage and 1 in 7/8battles i will lose a BB) the CV is there to provide cover should the Long-Range fleet be in bad luck and encounter the Main battlefleet of Japan(in that i case, my fleet will lose/be sunk) but some 20 to 35% of the Japanese fleet will go down with it(results varry on comander, allies or not etc).
As minor i so far have the most succes.
I am playing in the style of how my own country(Netherlands) conducted navy warfare.
With the Fleet in Being, Having 1 Super strong Capital ship somewhere in your fleet but not have it engaged all the time.
The Sub's work as normal, conoy raiding(although when playing as Netherlands) i do set them for Hunt and Kill around indonesia.
The compositions here work around the Real idea behind the fleet in being Docterine.
Having it, but not using it.
But the treat of that fleet being there can actually stop enemy navies from engaging your forces(i have seen japanese fleets retreat without fighting when finding a small screen fleet with their BB's in fleet, Because along the patrol route of the screens was my Tier 2 Super heavy BB and a Tier 3 CV). and my screens can useally keep the Japanese fleet busy, so i can send my Main fleet, to take them out.
Yes i lose ships(screens and subs mostly) by the bucket load. up to 5 to 10 per battle. but they are so easily replaced, and as Netherlands(being exiled) you can't create troops, so ships and planes FTW. so all production is switched into ships, all tech goes to ships.
and i can produce up to 7Subs a week, 10screens per 2weeks.
So anything i lose gets replaced back in greater number.
Playing this way, the Netherlands took out the Japanese, USSR Navies.
So overall, they are defently not the best fleets out there. you need to provide cover for them, situational depending is also a major factor.
Like as a minor;
I put the light fleets often in the same sector, one going for Hunt and Kill, the other on convoy raiding.
Subs spread out for just convoy.
Escorts esort a sector per fleet.
(fleet in being) my main fleet is mainly in port untill i encounter a big(ger) fleet that can destroy my screens, it then goes to that sector alone to deal with the threat.
Playing as Major;
Escorts, cover the coastal regions.
Mid-range the sectors outside the coastal line.
Long range to where i need them(either the 3th line of my country or a conflict).
Main Battlefield goes to provide cover for my long-range fleets(if there are no friendly ports close) i actually take the screens out and add 1 more CV to it.
Germany;
Sub's Sub's and more subs...nothing else i can say about it.
My CV composition just has to do with what i expect.
In my main battlefleet i expect them to encounter more Capitals and other CV's. so i have 2 dedicated for Naval Bombing, with some light air cover. and 2 who provide more then normal air cover, but can still deal a ton of damage with their NB's.
My long range fleet will get a but more ballanced, as it could encounter Fleets or come under hostile bomber attacks(if say close to the coast of france). but on the Mid-atlantic they can still deal decently with other ships due to the NB pressence.
So overall it works for me...maybe not for everybody :)
I'm happy with it, and so far i have yet to lose my complete navy in battles.
So far I have tended to have one or two main battlefleets (with about 50 ships or so per stack) but obviously that leads only having a very small and limited area to cover. Will try myself with breaking up the fleet composition a bit more, as to be honest I had no point of reference for example how many DD's should be in my fleet.
Will try to use some of these tactics, see how they go.
Thanks for your input, much appreciated!
The advantages of small VS big fleets are not much.
Mainly its the area you cover, which allows you(as USA for instance) to keep naval movement just going, eventho Japan and Germany are trying to raid your lines.
secondly i would say its easier to produce and swap between lines if you have limited port buildings.
Thirthly, its easier to addapt to your oppenent fleets and tactics.
(Playing as the Dutch i used a lot of DD's i was expecting a lot of subs from japan, and turned out they had more Surfice ships for me, i could easily throw my lines over to light and heavy cruisers, and within a month after encountering japan i had 2 screen fleets of light and heavy cruisers).
Dis-advantage is ofcourse, if you dont provide cover, fail to adapt, dont take a interest in naval warfare, the fleets(i fear) will be next to useless.
Time for me to write my findings playing as SU and red Japan.
CAs are useless, i could not figure out any use for them. If you want guns just get the bigger ships.
BC are kinda in the same as soon as you research BBII since they loose their 6kn speed advantage compared to BBI.
Big stacks seem to be the way to go or at least a good way to go.
With the soviets i just doomstacked BBs.
As Japan i got more into the naval side of things.
2 Battlefleets, a few sub fleets and a few DD/CL fleets.
I love CLs for their high AA, speed and evasion.
Org seems to not make no real difference.
But now to the BIG question what does reliability do for ships?